Dr. Raymond Burse & Dr. Eric Mount
Parts of this transcript were autogenerated and there may be errors.
Nolan Johnson:
My name is Nolan Johnson and today I'm interviewing Dr. Eric Mount and Dr. Raymond Burse who were at Centre College during the 1960s and 70s. I'm here with Coen Kinser, Baylor Woodall, David Caldwell, Grant Vaught, and a small audience. Today is January 18th, 2023. We are recording this interview in the Danville Boyle County African American Historical Center. Today, we'll be discussing Dr. Eric Mount and Dr. Raymond Burse's experiences during the era of urban renewal in the Danville. To start off, um can you guys talk about what brought you to Centre College?
Eric Mount:
They offered me a job. I came in 1966. In those days the teaching load was eight courses and so I was 3/8 chaplain and 5/8 professor. It didn't take long for uh. In the late 60s, people stopped going to Chapel, so pretty soon I was assistant Dean for 3/8 and 5/8 professor. After two years as assistant Dean, I'd had had enough of that, so it became an 8/8 professor. In the religion program.
Raymond Burse:
OK, so.
Eric Mount:
Is that enough? I mean, I had just finished my Doctorate at Duke.
Raymond Burse:
So I came to Centre in 1969 as a as a freshman. In fact, the decision to come to Centre was a last minute decision. I was a football player in high school. Signed to play football at Jackson State University in Jackson, Mississippi visited Centre two days before my high school commencement. Enjoyed the visit and decided to enroll in Centre in the fall of 1969.
Eric Mount:
And he was the only player on the very good football teams that played both offense and defense. They could never not have him on the field.
Baylor Woodall:
What position did you play?
Raymond Burse:
I was a running back and outside linebacker.
Baylor Woodall:
Do you play any other sports growing up?
Raymond Burse:
You know, I ran track, so the hurdler sprinter, relay person and track team as well.
Eric Mount:
And tell 'em what all you did at Oxford. He was a Rhodes Scholar and he.
Raymond Burse:
Played did play that end up playing rugby for Oxford University and probably the the most important things I earned 3 Blues while I was at the Oxford Blues are the equivalent of a letter, but you only get a blue if you compete in the matches against Cambridge University. So I got a blue in rugby, athletics, and what was the other sport? There were 3.
Eric Mount:
Rowing?
Raymond Burse:
Basketball, that's what it was.
Grant Vaught:
Now, did you play football while you were at Centre?
Raymond Burse:
Yeah, I did play.
Coen Kinser:
While you two were at Centre, how engaged were you all with the community?
Eric Mount:
Well, go ahead
Raymond Burse:
Well, for me, you know? When I came to Centre in in 1969, Centre had an enrollment of 715 students. And there were ten African American students in the entire student body, and so for us, the Danville community was an important part of our Centre experience because it it was a community in which we could relate to, you know, we spent a lot of time in the community in terms of what was going on. It was always interesting to us because, you know. Going out in the community that we would be referred to as there is those Centre boys. And sometimes we wasn’t always welcome in the Community because we were Centre boys and we had a tendency to attract females’ attention that they thought was a little rough on ‘em. So for me, the Danville community was an important part of my Centre experience. You know I've looked around here and I see things from First Baptist Church, I see things from St. John's which was the church community, and so you know on Sunday mornings we were in either at First Baptist or St. John's, so it was part of that. It made it it was part of what made the community and the Centre experience more comfortable.
Eric Mount:
Well, I came with two children and a wife. My wife later would be a French teacher at Centre, but I very soon got involved in quite a number of things in Danville and was soon elected president of a Human Relations Council that was going on at the time. And um, I have prepared a statement here that Professor Shenton has that um has reflections on race in Danville from '64 to '70, and I hope he'll provide you with copies of that because it would save me going into detail. For instance, about the Barbershops, which I'm sure Raymond will say something about that. . . the movies, other things, restaurants. But I I went on the boards of of several volunteer associations in town. So I did try to become involved in the community at the same time that I was breaking in as a professor at Centre. And I even I don't know whether this qualifies as community involvement, but when the then tennis coach found out that I'd played tennis in college. He said, and get this, and those days every coach on the payroll had to coach two sports and now of course every position of every team has two coaches. But anyway, he he said, well, if you can do more, he he was the basketball coach, but he was doing tennis and and they had won one match the previous year. He said if you can do more than chauffeur and cater, you need to be working with these guys. So I ended up being a volunteer tennis coach for 15 years. I don't know how my wife let me get by with it, but anyway I did. But that that's Centre community involvement, not Danville community involvement. But I did have a lot of Danville community involvement. And I think if you give them this at some point, it might do.
David Caldwell:
Dr. Mount could you talk about your time on the Human Relations Council? Just give your thoughts on that.
Eric Mount:
Well, Human Relations Council was just an informal group. They the schools were were integrated here. Only recently had been integrated and that's mentioned here and so this is a group of people that we were trying to promote better relations between "town and gown" and and you know Helen Fisher Frye well she was later Helen Fisher Frye, Helen Fisher and I went to visit the owner of the movie house where African Americans that had to sit in the balcony and there's a description. One of our student body presidents, Rick Hill, had had gotten involved in that and we got involved in it and we visited some employers. And in other words, we would try to do things that had to do with public accommodations. Got some treatment of the restaurant issue here, so I got involved with the this, this group and at some point they . . . I started to say were nice enough. I don't know if that's the right term to say they want me to be president for a year, but it was trying to, kind of make a good transition once the schools were integrated. Centre, the first three African American students that enrolled at Centre were juniors when I got there, and so it may not be doing a great job, but I was involved in the campuses response to being an integrated campus. We had human . . . we had. . . Actually, Raymond was president of that. Black White coalition wasn’t that the name of it for three years, weren't you?
Raymond Burse:
Yeah, yeah I was.
Eric Mount:
And so I was involved in things like that. Maybe he should say more about what was going on as the campus tried to be a good home for African American students. In other words, that there were some awkward things that start at the start. I remember hearing James Davis talk about he discovered and this is an embarrassment really, he discovered that he was the only person in his residence hall that didn't have a roommate. Well, it soon rectified that, but, uh, that shows that people were just worried. You know that they didn't want to create a tension . . . tense situation.
Raymond Burse:
And on that one that that you know, you bring it up is interesting because what we what we learned after we got here is that every African American female got a call from the Dean of Women, or their roommate got a call from the Dean of Women asking the question of whether or not it was alright for their daughter to room with an African American female. And you know that was that when we learned that somewhat, shocked and surprise, that didn't happen on the men's side, did not happen on the men's side because just because of Max Cavnes and what he stood for and what he and what he did. We also my second year learned that because of that we had a student African American female from Washington DC who came to Centre and when she got here she was placed in a room all by herself. She came on on a weekend on a Saturday classes and people didn't arrive until Tuesday. She was put in the room all by herself. And by Tuesday morning she was going back to DC because she wasn't going to stay in the environment which will... You know there are there are lots of things that that that took place in terms of of sort of the the the the environment in which we were. Well, I told you there were ten African American males, ten African American students as sent when I got here in 1969, seven of the ten were athletes, so the seven athletes, being men were able to coalesce around each other and be able to build a support network, whereas the women who were here did not have that same kind of network. And then we would say we were buttressed by Max Cavnes who was, in my opinion an outstanding Dean of Men. Made the environment welcoming for students of color at this particular time. Did we have any incidents on campus when I came here in 1969? The answer is yes. Some that that that I like to forget about in terms of taking place. But again, as I said earlier, because we found refuge in the Danville African American community, there was a place where we could go be ourselves. Be comfortable, be supportive in terms of things that were taking place. And it made it made it made a real difference from it. Dr. Mount mentioned, the Danville barbershops, you know, I grew up in in in a in an all Black neighborhood down in Hopkinsville, KY. You know we went to the barbershop and got a haircut and no problems or anything and we get to Danville and we find that we cannot get our hair cut. Cannot get a haircut. And in barbershop, where all the barbers were African Americans. Unbelievable, you know 1969. We complained about it in terms of things to it and then our student body president at the I guess Ollie wasn't student body president and one fellow student named Ollie Taylor decided
Eric Mount:
Well, he finally was.
Raymond Burse:
Yea, he was finally elected president of the student body. That we’re going to challenge the barbershops. And so you know, we decided had had talked with some with some attorneys and and I think that you know, Dr. Cavnes, Dr. Mount, Dr.
Eric Mount:
Chuck Chuck Lee, yeah.
Raymond Burse:
... Dr. Chuck Lee, decided that we were, we going to so we got up on a on a on a Wednesday morning, one of our off days.
Eric Mount:
There's my picture. Can you recognize me? I had hair then.
Raymond Burse:
And the guy who has his back to you right here is in fact yours truly. So that that was full. So we went from barbershop to barbershop to see how they would cut our hair. And the answer was I don't cut Black people's hair so then we asked for shampoo. We don't shampoo hair either.
Raymond Burse:
So we went from barbershop to barbershop to see why they would cut our hair and the answer was I don't cut black people's hair so then we asked for shampoo we don't shampoo hair either so you know we ended up filing a lawsuit against it with some litigation around it and we end up winning the lawsuit but I never got my hair cut in Danville I would wait till I got back to Hopkinsville and would do that but that represented an opportunity for our community to really challenge some of the one of the social norms that were taking place here in Danville. When I say an all Black barbershop owned by an African-American would not cut Black people's hair, in 1969. And that's what we were up against but that's something you know you learn from and you move on from in terms of where it was where it was yeah you know much to my chrigin the granddaughter of the African-American who owned the barbershop that I have met since leaving Centre and being around and she's one of the times she messed up and say you're the young man who put my grandfather out of business I said now all he had to do was cut my hair.
Nolan Johnson:
Can you talk a little bit about the reasons why they wouldn't cut your hair?
Raymond Burse:
Its segregation you know you're probably too young to realize what real segregation was all about in terms of solely based on the color of your skin they wouldn't render service to you. We had so I guess what we call now is a public accommodation. Kentucky was a border state during the Civil War never didn't join the Union didn't join the Confederacy even though a lot of Kentucky citizens or soldiers were in fact part of the Confederacy it was purely based on race in that you know if I could a Black person here no White person would come into my barbershop and allow me to cut their hair so it was a it was based on a fallacy and untruth and you know that's what we had to live with. You know I can tell you that on the Centre campus when we when we when I arrived in 1969, no major problems with that primarily, I guess for two reason one the president of Centre Thomas Spragens when he took over the jet came to Centre in 1957 told the Board that one of the conditions for his taking the job was that Centre would in fact desegregate. That was one part of one of the commitments that they made to him in terms of doing it and it happened the first student of color was an African student who came here and then in and then in 19- it would have been they graduated the next three graduated in '68 so they would have come here in 1964 in terms of where it was so you had a president who helped set a tone for what he expected in terms of student body and you had a Dean of Men Max Cavnes who was pretty direct in terms of - this is what I expect this is what I want to do and you know it's we're going to get along on this campus and we did. When I got here in '69 there were six fraternities on campus not a single African American was a member of any of them granted there wasn't many African Americans who were there but there was the whisper of a color line no fraternity on Centre's campus would accept an African American member, none not at all. And so with working with the with the Dean of men we decided we're gonna test that so two years later we tested whether or not a fraternities would in fact accept African American members and it changed that some did I never pledged while I was here but you know we end up with African American members in the fraternities on campus but again that was campus and life campus
Eric Mount:
Some become presidents during this.
Raymond Burse:
Yeah, they did didn’t they
Dr. Mount: That's right
Raymond Burse:
Yeah you know but that's it that was life on campus that you had to deal with but again you know to go to a church on Sunday morning and be in a you know in a room where everybody in the room looked like you was a comfort but not only that only that was that we got invited into private homes we got invited to Sunday dinner is that you don’t need to go back to Centre to have dinner you can eat dinner with me. The community embraced us brought us in and they were very supportive in terms of helping us to live in the environment which was challenging to us.
Grant Vaught: what were some of those conversations like when you all visited the barbershops?
Raymond Burse: Well you know we had a we had a plan, the plan was I'm here to get a haircut and they would say, "no, I can't cut your hair", just flat out "no, I can't cut you hair." We would ask, "why can't you cut my hair?" They didn't have an explanation. "Well since you can't cut my hair how about shampooing it?" "I can't shampoo your hair."
Eric Mount:
Well weren’t these same barbers cutting African American people hair in the evening at another location
Raymond Burse:
Right so in the shop that where all barbers were African American owned by an African-American those individual barbers in fact and evenings had a barbershop they had a location that they opened up where they cut African Americans hair so they would cut African Americans hair in the evening at this location but not in the barbershop during business hours.
Eric Mount:
And there were a couple barbershops on Second Street there which was part of urban renewal, right?
Michael Hughes:
There were two at one time maybe three there was one that was involved in urban renewal
Eric Mount:
And some of what Raymond has said is covered in this he’s done a better job but I think your professor is gonna give you a copy of this so it can flesh out a little bit more about some of this.
Baylor Woodall:
I read somewhere that barbers tried to defend themselves saying that they didn't have the training or didn’t know how, to is there any truth to that at all?
Raymond Burse:
No truth we were expecting that kind of response that's the reason I asked him could you shampoo so if you can't cut y'all outta shampoo right? So there was no out to it and to the case was filed in the Eastern District of Kentucky Federal Court the lawyer the judge was a guy judge named Max Swinford, if you get a chance to go and read and pull his opinion and you know he went through and in detail in terms of how they had violated the Civil Rights laws and particularly the public accommodation laws pretty clear opinion in terms of where it was. What I find most fascinating about all of that that the lawyer for the barber was a guy named Henry Pennington who went on to become a Circuit Court judge here in boyle county and you know he his whole tactic or defense was to show us as rebel rousers troublemakers and all of that and actually used that language in terms of some of the deposition and some of the things that got filed but at the end of the day the rabble rousers and the troublemakers got the barbershops and the Eastern Kentucky, the Eastern District Kentucky desegregated
Baylor Woodall:
Did y'all get any backlash from Centre or the community for the protest.
Raymond Burse:
We you know so being on the Centre campus you're somewhat shielded from a lot of things that happened in Danville so there was no blowback on us from the Danville community in terms of where we were Centre students you had to set the context for 1969, '70, '71, '72 and you know it was the height of the Vietnam War, activism was very present on almost all college campuses on some college campuses there have been demonstrations and people have gotten killed Kent State being one Jackson State University being another.
Eric Mount:
There's a write up about a march that took place here in Danville.
Raymond Burse:
And so we had an activist student body. A bent towards activism you know let's say, there was enough students on campus who were active activists and involved in terms of doing things that if you were not one of those you were probably pretty quiet didn't say much or any of those things. But you know as I say it was an environment where lots of friendships were built and those friendships carry help carry today in terms of where it was but nothing from that, you know the fact that you have three Centre professors going to want you to test the barbershops till you give you some indication of where at least the Centre community was.
Eric Mount:
And you mentioned President Spragens and his insistence on that school being desegregated when this march took place following the Kent State killings he preceded the march he came down the Main St. of Danville that day just in a way say you know Centre is behind these people and we expect them to be safe and if you see some of the things happened in other cities where the Klan gathered and people tried to block people from you know sitting in or whatever. So that would that was interesting and the way I remember and you were closer to the Canves of threat than I was although I knew he was going to do it but it my recollection is that he told them that he had talked to the president which he probably had and that their charters would be pulled the fraternities charter would be pulled if they did not offer membership to African-Americans.
Raymond Burse:
Cavnes was pretty strong and pretty direct in regards to what his expectations were and what the consequences of not doing it. And we had we had some members of some fraternities and some fraternities themselves who were not willing to do that but he came it was an opportunity it was a challenge to they're doing that and because they were on the Centre campus they either had to respond or not respond and I think all of them all of them responded some of them rather reluctantly. One as it relates to one male made the process of little tough for him and he decided no I don't want to join that fraternity but he ended up joining another one so that's what part of what was going through but you know having a person in your corner who made the environment and was supported now Cavens did not have a standard for Black students or a standard for White student he had a standard for students his expectation word they were all of us were students and we were going to be treated the same same opportunities and all of that and to that into that he was true to it throughout in it. If you talk to any African American males who were at the Centre from '64 to probably '75 about 7'5 every one of them will tell you they have they have a Cavnes story to tell that is important to their own development and their remaining at Centre.
Student: Dr. Mount, did you face any backlash from your collegues or students from participating in the protests?
Eric Mount: No, I had many collegues who were fully in agreement and a lot of them marched down the street in the Kent State protest. You were mentioning, as we were driving here, he was mentioning some other faculty members that meant a lot to him. He majored in Chemistry and Math and we were telling tales about some of the Chemistry professors. Who were 100% with him but if they said some of the stuff they said now that they said they, they'd be kicked out. Remarks about women's looks, not Black women.
Raymond Burse: . . .just women in general.
You know it's you know you look back on a lot of lot of lifelong friendships in terms of and so the professor we're talking about, was my chemistry professor he he was a salt of the earth. Great guy. And you know, I ended up being selected a Rhodes Scholar while I was at Centre. The person who suggested that I apply for the Rhodes Scholarship was this chemistry professor OK. He became, you know, he was he, he was a lifelong friend of mine. But you know, he was always looking out to see what opportunity he could create for me. I was telling Dr. Mount coming down here, the very first time I met him I was getting ready to go in the classroom trying to find the classroom and I was standing in the door looking in and all that. His thing was, “Are you coming in or you staying out? And if you come in there's no place for you to hide in those naps on the carpet, so better getting here and get a seat.” So that's the nature of of him so.
Baylor Woodall:
How did studying chemistry lead you to go to law school?
Raymond Burse:
[Laughter] Well, you know when I when I when I found out that I was going to be a Rhodes scholar
Eric Mount:
Harvard law school!
Raymond Burse:
I, I guess when I when I went to Chicago for the Rhodes interviews, my suitcase was full of applications to Graduate School in chemistry. And then when I found out I was going to Oxford, the question was whether I would do something I knew something about which was chemistry, or I would change fields and do what most American Rhodes Scholars do, they still course called politics, philosophy and economics, PPE. And I decided I wanted to do chemistry, so that's what I ended up doing, chemistry. Knowing full well that at some point I was going to go to law school.
Coen Kinser:
You talked quite a bit about the race relations in Centre as a whole at the time, how was the athletic team specifically? Were you welcomed? Were people mad that you took their spot?
Raymond Burse:
Now you have to understand what athletes this question is, "Are we winning?" And if we're winning, if we're winning and we're doing all right, they don't have a problem with anybody long as somebody helps them helps them win. You know, I would say that that athletics play has played and did play a major role in Centre’s desegregation. Now the three originally African American there was an African American male. He was not an athlete, two female. But then when the next wave of students come come in, most of us said seven of the 10, students when I was freshmen were athletes. But no, we had we had great relationships on on on the team. We had a couple of folks who were, if you if you get your mouth out of place and do something, just remember the next play is coming. And so we'll take you out. So after you get hit a couple of times because you say stupid stuff or dumb stuff, you learn real quick not to say it anymore, not at least in the presence of anybody to hear. But no, no real issues with with the with the team's athletic teams in terms of folks you know everybody is looking to be part of a team. And how do we win? And we win collectively.
David Caldwell:
What are the race relations like in Oxford?
Raymond Burse:
Well, you know when I went when I went to Oxford in in 1973. It was the first time I've ever been outside the continental U.S. into a foreign country for for Americans and Oxford, tt was like we were kings and Queens and kings in terms of how people treat us because we were American. We were big "A" Americans, not little "a" American. So, if you were from Mexico or or Canada, you were little "a" American, OK. but if you were from U.S., you big "A" American and they had a lot of respect for big "A" Americans in terms of where we. No, no real problems at Oxford at all at that particular point in time, I think the Oxford University had been integrated for a number of years, and so you know, no real issues there. Now, if you went into if you went into certain sections of London at that time, there are some places that you wouldn't go, and we knew where those places were. But never you know in in the entire in the entire two years that I was there and the times I've visited since then, never really any problems in Oxford, never at all. As I say, if you're big "A" American, you're all right.
Eric Mount:
I want to seize this little pause long enough to point out some of the things that Raymond is involved in in Louisville right now. He is the chair of the President of the Human Rights Commission. Is that right?
Raymond Burse:
Kentucky Human Rights.
Eric Mount:
Kentucky Human Rights Commission. He's very involved with Empower West, which is focusing on bringing the Western segment of Louisville up to the level of level of the rest of the city. And he is the vice president of the NAACP chapter there. He is on the board at the University of Louisville and most recently I don't know if you still are, but he was the the chair of the committee to get the new President. If you if you finished your term on then.
Raymond Burse:
Yeah I finish that we now have a new President she'll be there on February 1st.
Eric Mount:
And let me let me see I. I've probably got a couple of other things here. Well, I could go into all the awards that he's got, but he was very involved in this the the new school assignment plan, student assignment plan in Louisville, which has gone into effect, just this this fall, right?
Raymond Burse:
Right.
Eric Mount:
And so he was deeply involved in that, and he's part of Empower West which is a coalition that is is working on the problem I talked about. So I mean you look at what's going on in Louisville. He's at the heart of it in terms of moving things forward for equity, and equality, and justice, et cetera. Centre is mighty proud of him.
Grant Vaught:
Kind of moving into urban renewal here in Danville. What were kind of some of, like the personal things that you saw and things that were kind of going on in Danville at that time?
Raymond Burse:
You know, just remember when I got here in in ‘69 in terms of things that we didn't own from the Centre for students. So we didn't see much in terms of what was taking place in and around us and where things were. You know, we saw some areas developed some not developed. But you know, for the most part you know I did not see or witness much of anything as it relates to urban renewal. Of you know the areas of of of Danville that we went to. Didn't see any of those things. You know, we used to talk, you know, with First Baptist Church we were, we used to be told the area around that around First Baptist. The church was still there, but the area around it was taken a lot of. It was taken by urban renewal in terms of what was taking place, but in in terms of our engagement or knowledge of it. At least I at least. From where I was not much at not much of a perspective of it at all. In terms of where it is.
Coen Kinser:
Dr. Mount, can you speak on how much the campus knew at all about urban renewal and what Centre's involvement was while it was happening?
Eric Mount:
I wish I could do better at that. Somebody that I think you all me want might want to talk to is person named Carol Senn who has Carol's Bridal and Gift Boutique on Main Street. I don't know if anybody has talked to her but she went to high school here and she remembers what 2nd Street, for instance, was like. Before urban renewal, and she's been very active at McDowell House and saw the transformation that took place. It was four apartments and the barbershop over here.
And I mean she can describe the way 2nd St was. And when I got here, this the area behind. . . well, let's put it in these terms. You got - Atchison Caldwell, Cheek Evans. It's Bill Garriott would tell you and he's a retired government professor when he came here. Those were new because Kentucky College for Women had merged with Centre and they were shutting down the the Kentucky College for Women Campus and moving everybody here. And so the women were into Atchison-Caldwell and Cheek-Evans. The next year he came here in '62 as an undergraduate. The next year Yerkes came in and it was later that the Hillside Houses came in. But but before Centre got that property and put in those dormitories, there were a lot of houses back where the, well do you all remember where the soccer field used to be? 'Course it's dormitory now. But anyway, Bill Garriott remembers when the fire department was coming burning down the houses that had been condemned as part of urban renewal just to practice. You know their firefighting skills or whatever so that whole area behind there was, shall we say, cleared out by urban renewal. When I got here I mean the houses that are on Lexington Avenue were occupied, those were newer houses and then McMillan Avenue which is one step over from Lexington Avenue. That was a pretty much a done deal when I got here, so I didn't observe some of the things that happened. Now, there were still businesses on 2nd street in 1966, right?
Michael Hughes:
Yes
Eric Mount:
And it was a while before Constitution Square took . . . I can't give you a date when the Constitution Square we see today actually was put in place.
Michael Hughes:
Probably around '70, around '72, maybe.
Raymond Burse:
Yeah, I think.
Eric Mount:
But on that street were barbershops, four apartments there was, bootlegging that went on there because Danville was dry. There was a Masonic home, there was a poolroom. You all, I'm sure, I'm sure become acquainted with all that, but that was the part of town that had not finished urban renewal.
Raymond Burse:
Right. In in in fact, remember I told you that there was a barbershop that at night would cut Black. . . , but was upstairs actually over the 2nd floor of this building.
Eric Mount:
Right. So there that's I came in the fall of ‘66 and there it is.
Michael Hughes:
That was that barbershop was ran by a gentleman named Harry Whitley. Then I think he cut on Main Street and then and they went to there.
Raymond Burse:
They meet there.
Grant Vaught :
So you. Said that, some of you and your friends attended the church here. What was the community like in the church here?
Raymond Burse:
It you know it was a open welcome welcoming community. You know, in attendance at the churches was really, really really large in terms of where it was. You know we were easily welcomed into the church as I say, and some of the mothers of the church, you know, sort of took us under their wing and would feed us. Would invite us to activities. Those kinds of things and that happened at both First Baptist and at Saint Johns.
Eric Mount:
Saint James
Raymond Burse:
James James OK. I'm thinking of Louisville. Saint, Saint James.
But you know it was nice. We were, we would. . .So church service would start at 11 o'clock in morning, ok, that was both churches. Centre then had sit down service for for lunch on Sundays and so if you weren’t back on campus by 1 o’clock you couldn’t eat. So that’s why these mothers and these churches invited us out to stay because we you know would get there look at our watches and it got to be 12:30 so we started walking out, and finally one Sunday they stopped and said “where are y’all going” and we told them and they said “don’t worry about it you guys stay here, enjoy the service,” and then they would feed us.
Eric Mount:
St. James there had a meal at the church
Raymond Burse:
Right and my memory it was every Sunday [Raymond and Eric discussing at same time]
Eric Mount:
Yeah, right.
Raymond Burse:
But that was that that was a welcoming community and and again you know because there were, we were Centre students on the campus we were looked up on not with any kind of disdain, but you know people were proud that there were African American students at Centre.
Grant Vaught:
So you would say the community was supportive of African American students
Raymond Burse:
Oh oh no doubt no no doubt whatsoever the community was very supportive of us all the time except for when we were messing with the young ladies.
[chuckles in the room]
Raymond Burse:
Now you know I said it half joking, there used to be a um um a nightclub called the Ponderosa….where people uh went for entertainment on on Friday and Saturday nights and we used to go to the Ponderosa on Saturday evenings, walked to Ponderosa on Saturday evenings and then we would run back to campus later that night as they chased us back…[chuckles] It it was um uh I said it that in terms of. . . the community really welcomed us and embraced us in terms where we were and were real supportive.
Eric Mount:
I have to tell a little story about St. James Church. I was on the Human Rights Commision for a number of years here that is a city government agency and uh also on it was a person everyone called him “Wink” uh uh and he didn’t mind being called that but his last name was Sweat and he worked for the state government but uh on the weekends he was the pastor up at St. James AME Church. So he came up to me one day at the human rights meeting and he said “ Eric, we got Founder’s Day coming up at the church and I want you to come preach” and I said “ you know I’m really honored that you want me to come preach there but uh you know I am a Presbyterian and I uh don't know a whole lot about the founding of the AME denomination” and I said ”why not get some outstanding person at your denomination and get them to preach of Founder’s Day and get me to preach some other Sunday.” He said “I tried with them all and they are all tied up.” So that means I was last on the list to to get so I had a lot of [] with him on that but I went I’ve never been so welcomed in my whole life and I was when I went to preach at that church.
Coen Kinser:
Being a professor of religion, how involved were you with the churches?
Eric Mount:
Well uh, I uh did uh as a Presbyterian minister, I am an ordained Presbyterian minister I uh belong, you don’t belong to a local congregation if you are an ordained minister, I was a member of Transylvania Presbyterian which is this area around Lexington most of it Eastern Kentucky and so uh, early on in my time here a good many of the area churches would invite me to come preach on Sunday’s, which I did do that. But uh and I was uh very involved with the local Presbyterian church which is there near the campus and uh you know I taught Sunday school, I was in the choir for 47 years. Uh uh the former choir director is now the director at the church my daughter serves and she said “well I guess my dad was in your choir” and he said we gave each other hell for 15 years [Raymond chuckles]. So the tenure section was kind of a thorn in his flesh but no I uh uh my family and I were very involved with the church here.
Nolan Johnson:
I heard you guys mentioned that the Centre campus as a whole was a pretty activist campus. Do you feel like there was a similar level of community involvement from other students as well and professors?
Eric Mount:
Well there was certainly other professors who were activists um, and as we were describing um, again this statement that I prepared talks about the Day of Concern and the march that took place and I recall that uh during uh….one of our, well we had a collection of outstanding speakers come to the campus for a symposium and I can remember uh the huge numbers of people that stood outside the library uh by candlelight and read the names of the war-dead of the Vietnam War so there was a lot of Vietnam War activity, and uh one thing uh time to time that I remember is that I uh taught a course called “Violence and Non-violence. And uh I had a lot of people taking it and several of them were African American students and so our students were wrestling with whether to go to Canada or serve in the military or declare as conscience objectors, well the way the conscience objector law reads is, unless, I mean you just can’t decide I don’t like this war but I might have fought in some other war so please let me be a conscientious objector. You have to be shown that based on firmly held beliefs that for you either are religious or take the place of religion in your life. So what it amounted to was students were trying to take a course that they could show that they had read Gandhi and they had read Martin Luther King and and they had uh schooled themselves in the philosophy of uh non-violence and so they were gonna uh be able to use that then to be able to get conscientious objector status. So I uh was convinced that that was the big reason I had a lot of people in that class. And uh we recently had a dedication for the marker for the only Centre graduate that that died in Vietnam, Tommy Thompson, and as I talked to some of his contemporaries from the time he was at Centre, they talked about the rustle they went through to try and say “I don’t agree with this war what do I do?” Well some of them served, some of them, well I don’t really I can’t name some of them that went to Canada.
Raymond Burse:
I can’t think of any of them that went to Canada. I think what I what what I do recall happening was that in the fall of 1969 President Nixon reinstituted the draft. And then the following spring what the draft what they did was they would draw….draw um your birthday uhh your birthdate they would draw date for 365 days. Then they would come up with what your last name was and I can remember being a bunch of us in the lounge in that spring-Freshman, Sophomores, Juniors, and Seniors and the Juniors and Seniors were really concerned because depending on where they fell in it, um and I can remember um what you call…one Brooks Lindon who was my floor counselor my freshman year ended up with his birthday as number 8 and and L was pulled number one out of the pot and he actually ended up getting drafted and he never ended up going to Vietnam with those but there was a lot discussion and nervousness amongst students around “am I gonna get drafted am I gonna have to serve?” Um but beyond him uh I only remember three people who in fact that I know of got drafted and did serve but never went to Vietnam.
Coen Kinser:
Kind of bringing back into race relations in the states at the time, uh after you graduated law school was did you find any trouble finding a job?
Raymond Burse:
No, I uh uh no trouble finding a job see one, number one I was a Rodes scholar, number two I had attended Harvard Law School.
[chuckles]
Raymond Burse:
And so with those kinds of credentials it was pretty much, at least in that day and age, you could probably name where you wanted to go and what you wanted to do. I made the decision that I wanted to come back to Kentucky. I looked at New York, Washington D.C, looked at Chicago, and L.A. and decided that I wanted to come back to Kentucky so uh no real problem coming back, you know one of the beauties of Centre that all of you should know is you have probably heard people talking affectionately about the Centre mafia. There is a network of Centre folks across this state and believe it across this country and so I ended up with the law firm that I went out of out out of when I graduated law school because, a Centre graduate that I met my freshman year who had uh was a member of the Board of Trustees recommended that the law firm recruit me so that's where I clerked at the Y. Graftus law my freshman year after after my first year of law school. Uh so I made that connection and then you know the Centre community there um a lot of things in fact happened but um no no. . .
Eric Mount:
I know why Y. Terren Combs
Raymond Burse:
. . . but um no real issues the only question was where am I gonna go practice uh I had the credentials I had done that….doors opened
Baylor Woodall:
Ever worked outside of Kentucky?
Raymond Burse:
(chuckles) I have not that thats, I have never had a job where my base was outside of Kentucky. I spent 19 years in GE as a senior counselor and as a general counselor and a GE corporate officer so my base was Louisville, Kentucky but my workplace was the world. So I got to travel around the world for GE.
Eric Mount:
You worked for Proctor and Gamble
Raymond Burse:
Yeah did that but that was all Cincinnati…no travel
Eric Mount:
And he’s been president of Kentucky State twice and I uh think they would like to get him back to campus
[chuckles]
Eric Mount:
He is not gonna touch it with a ten foot pole
Raymond Burse:
You got that right….nah you live and learn
David Caldwell:
You said earlier are you on the or a member of the NAACP in Kentucky or on . . .
Raymond Burse:
So I uh uh
Eric Mount:
Was president
Raymond Burse:
So I so so the way the NAACP operates is it there is what we call a state conference and each city has a branch so I am the vice president of the Louisville branch but I’m legal redress chair for the Kentucky State Conference’s NAACP branches.
David Caldwell:
Can you talk about your experience on that?
Raymond Burse:
Yeah so uh uh you know uh the NAACP…if you address… the NAACP addresses a lot of issues on the battlefield everyday for civil rights in terms of making certain that people have equal accommodation equal rights all of that…um in this day in age do we still have complaints and…yes we do. Um probably the biggest issue for us at least here in Kentucky is Kentucky is one of only three states that if you are ever convicted of a felony, you lose your voting rights forever, unless the governor restores it. And so one of the things we are working on is trying to well we we requested the general assembly to pass put a ballot put initiative on the ballot for um revising the Kentucky constitution that says, Once a convicted felon serves his or her term and paid their debts to society that their voting rights are automatically restored. We haven’t been able to do that, um, the current governor, Andy Beshear, when he was inaugurated in 2019, 2020, yeah 2020, um, signed an executive order restoring voting rights to 168,000 Kentuckians who had lost their voting rights because of felony conviction. We still fighting that battle today. That is probably the biggest one. Uh, our whole focus is getting people out to vote, getting people to vote. Um, when you consider that, that um, our turnout in Kentucky some years is is is between 30 and 35 percent of voters that vote, uh, that means that you, people that are citizens of the state are not really participating in the in the democratic process and they should. Um, so we do that, we we get involved in in in uh in complaints so uh one of the things that we were involved in as you all know the the Breonna Taylor matter in Louisville uh where the young lady was was uh I’ll use the word murdered, um because we now know that a lot of false information was used to obtain the search warrants in terms of what took place. We were very active in terms and involved in that. We were the first group in Louisville to call on the Commonwealth Attorney to drop charges against the young man who fired the shot that wounded the police officer. Uh I can tell you after 14 months we were able to to get that. Uh we’re still involved in in terms of looking at at um at at police actions in the city of Louisville and really across the state and really more focused on large metropolitan areas Louisville, Lexington, Paducah, Madisonville, uh Henderson, um those cities Frankfort, um but that’s what the NAACP is today still fighting to make certain that everyone’s civil rights are protected and preserved and in particular everybody’s sacred right to vote is restored.
Professor Shenton:
Michael had a question for
Michael Hughes:
Uh on the Kentucky State, I wanna go back to that. I know you said you served twice, and I was seeing if you think that situation is very um out of shape I’ll put it that way. Could you uh talk a little bit about why you feel that Kentucky State is not up to the level of um I don’t know uh that it should be maybe?
Raymond Burse:
The the state of Kentucky or Kentucky State?
Michael:
Kentucky State
Eric Mount: [laughs]
Raymond Burse:
He’s laughing because he knows what my response is gonna be and that is I really have no opinion and view of what the current situation is at Kentucky State or what must what needs to be done. And I do that for one reason in particular people, and that is um if I say something, it will be repeated and quoted in some places that it does not need to be repeated and quoted in and so therefore I take the position uh I don’t know any more than you know.
Eric Mount:
See you got it signature and everything he says here could be out there.
Raymond Burse:
[laughs]. But Kentucky states a good school.
Eric Mount:
Let me just tell you one little story about Raymond at Kentucky State. I’ve got my numbers here. The second time you were there, he took ninety thousand out of his annual salary and raised the pay of all the lowest paid employees so that they all had got a living wage. So, he reduced his salary by ninety thousand dollars a year and moved it to the people on the payroll that needed it most. I thought that was a pretty exemplary action by a president.
Professor Shenton:
Are there any more questions? At this point we’re right after three thirty at three thirty-five. Do you have any more questions that have come up now?
James:
I have a question.
Professor Shenton:
Yeah, please James.
James:
You said you were committed to Jackson State, right? Before you decided to go to Centre. And Jackson States like and HBCU and Centre, at least when you committed there’d only been like ten African Americans. Did you feel like going to Centre was kinda a risk in that regard?
Raymond Burse:
You know I think going anywhere at that point in time was in fact a risk, but I felt comfortable enough with who I was and what I could do and what I was accomplish. I could do alright in just about any environment where I am. I can tell you when I announced to people in my community that I was not gonna go to Jackson State and go to Centre, I got labeled a "trader" by some folks so, uh, that I can recall that and one of them was one of my coaches who told me that but anyway. And now when he sees me he says, you know, you made the right decision.
Eric Mount:
Were there some Centre alums that kinda gave you a nudge to come to Centre or was that not in the picture?
Raymond Burse:
There was. There was a guy named Jack Hatta who owned the grocery store in Hopkinsville and was a friend of my dad. Um and when Centre, I guess started recruiting me, um, the admissions counselor and the folks talked to Jack Hatta who talked to my dad and said one thing you outta, if he doesn’t do anything, let him, make him visit Centre. And my dad made me visit Centre. I told you I went the two days before my high school commencement to visit Centre. Uh and uh I enjoyed I liked it and in fact my, the visit I had to Centre uh there was another African American that visited the same day a guy named Harry Sites out of Lexington who played quarterback on our team. Uh and Harry and I you know met that day when I got to Centre and we’re you know we’re lifetime friends. We’re still friends to this day. Um but you know seeing Harry
Eric Mount:
He was wasn’t he a fraternity president at one point?
Raymond Burse:
Um, yeah Harry was with the Dekes for a while. He was. So, you know that with that, having him coming there and would helped to make the decision a lot easier and then um you know we just had a great group of people in terms of where we are.
Professor Shenton:
Other questions that have come up from anyone in the room?
Eric Mount:
And Harry’s dad was what? Vice-mayor in Lexington?
Raymond Burse:
Ya ya you know he was vice mayor of the Lexington City Commission for a number of years and in fact made a run for mayor of Lexington. Made it out of the uh primary and got beat in the general election. And this is back in in the early 70s.
Eric Mount: Yeah
Raymond Burse:
Early 1970s by the way. [laughs] ok
Professor Shenton:
Anything else? Dr. Mount would you like a chance to read the statement you were referring to? You were talking about maybe doing that before. Would that be
Eric Mount:
Well it it I’ll leave it up to you. I mean you could disseminate uh the statement for everybody to have a copy and we could fill in some of blanks but if you want it read into the record I don’t mind reading it.
Professor Shenton:
I think that, I think that would be great since we have you here. Um what I’m gonna do is I’ll pause this.
Eric Mount:
When I joined the Centre faculty in fall of 1966, Timothy Kusi, that’s K U S I, a student from Ghana, who was the college’s first full time Black student had graduated and Centre’s first three African American students were juniors. Although Danville High School and Kentucky School for the Deaf were listed as officially integrated in 1956/57 the public schools were not fully integrated until 1964. One of those three Centre students, Joyce Cross Marks, reports that she and her parents could eat wherever they wished in Danville so the U.S. constitution act of 1964 had taken affect regarding public accommodations. Kentucky passed its civil rights act in 1966. Cross also reports that she went to the movie theatre on Main Street with two white female students early on and sat downstairs with them not realizing that people of color were supposed to go upstairs. Some local African-American high school students called to compliment her on her bravery in integrating the theatre and she was surprised. Initiatives on the part of officers of the local human relations council of which I was on and Rick Hill, the Centre student congress president, soon led to an official change by the movies house management. With some priding discrimination by realtors and showing houses also changed. So that was something else that Helen Fisher and I tried to attend to. The year 1970 saw two direct action events that showed the effects of Dr. King and the civil rights movement. The first was a silent march down Main Street in Danville on May 8 by many students and faculty and some local citizens. On that Day of Concern there were also, there were also on campus discussions, panels, and lectures, and a memorial service for the war dead in protest against the Vietnam war. Which had been a cause for Dr. King before his death. On May 4th at Kent State University there had been a protest against the bombing of Cambodia that ended with the killing of several students by the Ohio National Guard. After negotiations among the Centre administration, faculty, and students, classes were cancelled or postponed for the Day of Concern. A delegation was also sent to Washington to voice of the college is concerned. This is my final paragraph. A second example of nonviolent direct action in the spirit of Dr. King was a walk-in of several Danville barbershops in the fall of 1970 barbershops and beauty shops have received exemptions from state and federal public accommodations law and Kentucky's downtown barbershops were not willing to serve people of color. One of the shops was operated by barbers of color who nevertheless took no Black customers. Although they did serve Black customers in the evening at another site. Three Centre male students, Raymond Burse, Tommy Lee Smith, and Ollie Lee Taylor, the first Black Centre student congress president and three faculty members, Max Cavnes, Charles Lee, and Eric Mount attempted walk-ins in four or five downtown shops and they were refused service in all of them. Near that time, another shop did accept all comers. A lawsuit was filed based on the refusals that day and finally on February the 18th 1972, judge Max Swinford of Kentucky’s Eastern Judicial District handed down a decision denying the exemption of barbershops and beauticians from public accommodations law.
Professor Shenton:
Thank you Dr. Mount. Any questions that came up in response to that? Or any reactions from Michael or Dr. Burse.
Michael Hughes:
Great, it’s gone great. [inaudible] I’m just glad to be a part of it. And Dr. Mount.
Eric Mount:
Yeah, we had one of the sessions between the two of us. I had to make him speak first because what he had to say was more important. He told about the march to Frankfort that you were involved in.
Michael: 64 [inaudible]
Eric Mount:
Can I fix something? I have one typo on that.
Professor Shenton:
Yeah sure
Eric Mount:
I think you’ve got nine copies or have you already given them out?
Professor Shenton:
No I have them here, do you want to fix them all?
Eric Mount:
Yeah. It won’t take but a minute; it’s just one word. I spelled site the wrong way. Anyway, Michael and I had a good time working on that.
Professor Shenton:
Is there anything else that either of you wanted to bring up during this interview that you didn’t get a chance to talk about or have time for that if there’s anything else.
Raymond Burse:
I’m fine.
Eric Mount:
I just want credit for making sure that Raymond got here cause I knew he was gonna be the star of the show.
[laughs]
Professor Shenton:
On the record, full credit, absolutely.