Charles Grey - 2023

Charles Grey, 2023 

Parts of this transcript were autogenerated and there may be errors.

Winnie Combs (WC): My name is Winne Combs, and today I’m interviewing Charles Grey, who has lived in Danville during the mid-twentieth century and is eighty years old. And... I am here with Chaney Garrison, Chenjie Shang, and Khanh Duong in person. Today is January 17th, 2023, and we’re recording this in Danville Boyle County African American Historical Society. Today we will be discussing Charles Grey's experiences during urban renewal.

Chenjie Shang (CS): So, first question, where did you grow up?

Mr. Grey: I grew up here in Danville. On, it used to be a Green Street, now it's Martin Luther King.

Chenjie Shang (CS): Can you describe what your neighborhood was like?

Mr. Grey: It was just a neighborhood that we were, we were, close-knit, and we had access to the school, Bate School. Mostly we just stayed in our community because my parents didn’t have a car. I was only able to go as far as I wanted to walk so it was it was just a basic neighborhood.

Chenjie Shang (CS): Is there any is there any type of typical day when you were young that is still a memorable day when you were young?

Mr. Grey: In the summertime it was nice to be able to go to the playground and play with other kids outside of your neighborhood. And then we would go on trips to visit other communities. And that was good, that was good.

Chaney Garrison (CG): Are you or have you been married? Do you have children and can you kind of tell us a little bit about like your immediate family or the people that you spend a lot of time with growing up in Danville?

Mr. Grey: Yes. I got married at age 17, and me and the first wife stayed together for twenty eight years. I have two children. And... My son he would be 61 but he passed away, and my daughter is 53 - she works for the Mercedes Benz company in human resources. And what did else you ask on that question?

Chaney Garrison (CG): Um... Just tell us a little bit about your family and how does it feel like growing up with them in Danville?

Mr. Grey: Yeah. Um...My family. I worked at the Parks Bell company, and I only made $30 a week. And so, I tried different industries in Danville. In a that time, they're only hire one Black. And so, I also work for Jacob Air men's clothing shop. And I talked to him one day and I said I think I'm going to have to leave Danville because I can't make any money. But I did leave Parks Bell and went to State Hospital. I stayed there for about four years. I got up to $50 a week. So, I finally, I left Danville and went to Square D in Lexington to work. And..I lived, I moved to Nicholasville. But, in Danville, once they hire only one Black – the good paying jobs – no one else got hired, during my time. Now later on, it changed. But when I came along, that's the way it was.

WC: Was that the same at the hospital? Like you mentioned that in the previous one that you’re hired?

Mr. grey: The State Hospital?  Winnie Combs: Yeah.

Mr. Grey: No. It was a low-paying job. They hired a bunch of us to cook and of service jobs. But that's the best you could do. At one time, Centre College hired a lot of Blacks. For janitor work, housekeeping so on and so forth. But when they had to start paying more money, we weren't there anymore.

WC: So, after Bate school, did you go to any other schools around or did you go right into the workforce?

Mr. Grey: I got married at seventeen, so...

WC: Oh, I didn’t know if you continued on or not.

Mr. Grey: No

Khanh Duong (KD): Can you tell me about one of your favorite memories growing up in Danville?

Mr. Grey: I guess, it’s several, but the one that . . . I was active in sports. And we got to travel and see other neighborhoods and so on and so forth. And so in my, in the neighborhood I lived in we had a basketball court. Us little guys could play with each other, but when the big guys came, we had to hide behind the trees. So, my parents wouldn't see me not getting to play.

But what we did was learn from them and the one thing that it is something stuck with me as far as life values. When I came along, we had uniforms, and if somebody else wanted your uniform, they got it. And you may have to wear any thing that's available. But one time, I left my shorts home, and I was determined that I was not going to take a lesser player's uniform. So I went in the locker room of the other player's school, and I got to a red shorts. And I played in them, and I pride myself with that because it hurt not to have enough equipment but then somebody take what you got because they’re older. And I, I think I had a shirt on, a jacket on, and there might been a 50. And I was wearing about a small, so you know. So, that's, not, educational things that happen but it was good for life to learn that sometimes you gotta make your own ways and not complain.

CG: How would you describe your involvement in the Danville community when you were younger. And then after kind of we talk about that, how does that compare to how you're involved in Danville now?

Mr. Grey: Oh, when I was younger, I've always been interested in history. And, I ... anywhere there was historical events, I was there. And then I got involved with the Masons, and that was a high point in my life where I got to meet other African Americans in other cities, and I got to see how they lived and, what they had, and what Danville didn’t have. But. You know, I associated with a lot of people in Lexington, say Nicholasville and Lebanon. And then when I got start getting my degrees in Shriners and then I got my thirty third degree, I had to go to Washington DC and get that. I have the book, and when I looked through it, there's men from everywhere. I didn't know them all, I know just the ones who went with me. But just the fact that I'm involved outside of Danville at that time was very important because Danville didn't have much to offer. Did that answer? Is that enough? [Laugh]

CS: Yeah. But like now, as you’re older, do you think that your involvement in the Danville community has changed, or is it kind of like the same thing that you was when you was younger?

Mr. Grey: It’s a lot that has changed, but it's a lot that remained the same. And especially when you think you have advanced, and then just a little time later you find out you're in the same place. So the way things are now it looks better but we're still in the same place as a people. Now there are African Americans that do well and sometimes they're used to keep down other African Americans because they're doing well. But all in all I learned as I got older is you can make your own way and you can't compare yourself with anybody else you gotta do the best you can do with what you got and that being said, that's all you can do.

WC: So you have mentioned that it's still the same kind of in Danville or it has changed but the people are still the same, like . .  .?

Mr. Grey: The system.

WC: The system?

Mr. Grey: The system is what controls everything. People say a lot of this stuff, but the system... just like voting. Well, my votes don't count like y'all vote counts.

WC: Can you talk a little bit more about the system?

Mr. Grey: Well, sometimes you don't know what you don't have until you need it. And when you go to see about getting this, just like at one time you go to try to borrow some money, but the system say we can't loan you money. And the system says that if you get money, instead of getting in from of the bank, you had to go to the finance company - higher rate, higher interest rate. So, and now to bring it back as the same. The properties we had, that we could afford. Urban renewal eminent domain took that. And now most Black can't afford the price of property today. So, there's no way of getting it back. I still have the house my mom had, but if I ever lose it, the day that I lose it for what they want to pay me today for it, if I come back after they buy it, I can't afford it. And a case in point, the large Hall property, they bought for $37,000, now that property is worth $240,000 just because it changed hands, but we could never get that kind of price.

CS: Did you attend church when you’re growing up?

Mr. Grey: Yes. I was involved church and I still involved in church. I teach Sunday school now, and I have found out that the plight that Blacks is in today they've always been in it, biblically.

CS: So,your experience from previous in church and now is almost similar or have some difference, between your previous experience and the now experience in church?

Mr. Grey: I missed the first part.

CS: So.. Um.. Is there any change for your experience in church in, your previous, in the past and now?

Mr. Grey: No. It’s the same

CS: Ok.

WC: Did segregation plays a role in your church community, in your experience?

Mr. Grey: Yes. It’s when you take away a person’s resources, they don't have nothing to give, so donation that you was able to put in church, but you don’t have that no more and a lot of people I’m just saying that a lot of people don’t have no interest in church, then when you don’t have a community, that’s just cohesive, you not going to have a church, I’m talking about a Black church. We’re so spread out now and so few... it's just . .. actually we’re .. actually lot’s of them went in different directions and so it’s just not like it used to be where we depended on each other, we worked together but now we so spread out and we have a tendency to beat up on ourself thinking that so and so did this and sometimes it was the system that did it not the people.

CG: What comes to your mind when you hear the term urban renewal?

Mr. Grey: Hmm…to be quite honest when they first came in, I thought it was a good thing because they said they would improve what we had, but that ain’t what they wanted to do. They wanted to profit and to send us where ever we could go. And then that made me not feel so good and then the bad part about it is, I have a problem trusting any group of the system because you tell me one thing, but I don't see it and then some people, they not involved in it, but they vote a way to make it say the same. They're not doing the work, but they involved to where other people would do it for them and you think they alright but they ain't.

Professor Shenton: A quick follow-up question if that's okay. You were talking about urban renewal and you also were talking about how the African American Community is now spread out. Do you link..are those two ideas put together for you how the community is spread out to urban renewal or would you say there are other factors involved as well?

Mr. Grey: It is other factors. I’m not blaming everything on urban renewal. I’m not blaming everything on the system, but it all took a toll. It took a toll so... I am not here to make everything seem like someone else’s fault cause sometimes when you treated a certain way, you can’t keep hope up. You can’t trust anymore. You can’t believe that somebody’s got your best interest especially when you need them. If you go to a bank you need them to assist you in trying to do what you want to do and if they don't do it, you lose trust and you find out that this person here they can get more money than you can but yet and still you can't get money if you don't earn money. And case in point, my daughter has got a master degree and some change, more and she works in Atlanta and she makes six figures, good money but when they bring a White person they start out at where she is and she’s got 30 years of service. That kind of stuff, that's what I'm talking about. You know I'm just, and if you're not careful you'll get angry and that doesn't do ya any good because you ain't doing nothing but hurting yourself, when I talk to her that's the same thing we went through. She got education, she's doing better than I did, but yet and still I'm getting by and she's getting by.

Professor Shenton: Can I ask you in particular: Were you in town during the 7th street urban renewal project that’s next to Centre’s campus? Were you here?

Mr. Grey: Yes.

Professor Shenton: Can I ask you where- do you know that the families that were displaced because of that project, do you know where they ended up? Were they relocated in Danville in and around 7th Street or were they were located somewhere else. Do you know?

Mr. Grey: Some of them went ot he housing projects and one of them in particular he helped urban renewal, so he got a house on Lexington Street but um most of them I really don't know where they went. Some of them had to go back and stay with family and just different things cause lot of them didn’t own the property, so it wasn’t like they lost a lot, they didn't own it in the first place but the rent was affordable. The houses wasn't that good, but it was affordable.

Professor Shenton: And had those families been in that area for a long time? Would you say that that was a neighborhood, a community?

Mr. Grey: Oh yeah.

Professor Shenton: Okay.

Mr. Grey: Long time.

Professor Shenton: And most of those families were not relocated locally to where to of the 7th street areas. Is that true?

Mr. Grey: No.

Professor Shenton: Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Grey: They couldn’t. A lot of them couldn’t afford to buy anything. Especially once the property got upgraded.

CS: How is the reaction of the neighborhood when they heard of urban renewal

Mr. Grey: You don’t wanna know. Some of them that really got hurt, they are pretty angry. They pretty angry. Where I live, urban renewal didn’t come through there, but um when I come up to 2nd Street, that is where our recreation was, it is gone.

CD: What was 2nd Street like in your oldest memory?

Mr. Grey: It was poolroom. It was a barbershop. It was restaurants. And it is where Blacks gathered for different reasons and occasions and it was a place where we felt comfortable. Now when you leave 2nd Street and come around the corner to Main Street, you couldn't buy a sandwich there. You couldn't do anything on Main Street. We could go to the movies at the Kentucky Theater we set up in the balcony, but if you had to go to the bathroom, you had to leave the theater and come down to 2nd street, use the bathroom, and come back to the theater. But that was not good. And they had a bathroom for the Whites, so but if we wanted to see a movie, we had to do what the system said.

WC: In what other ways was Danville segregated besides Second South and Main that you like vividly remember, as affecting you.

Mr. Grey: Give me some examples of what you want to know.

WC: Like South Second Street, you described as like the place that people of color congregated and Main Street, you couldn't even buy a sandwich. What other ways like what we in some of our readings we had read about like designated Black shopping days. Do you have that recollection?

Mr. Grey: Not in my time. I think what happened to a lot of Blacks, you got comfortable with where you was at. You knew you couldn't do this over here, but if you had all you needed in your neighborhood, it didn't matter. So what was going on in the other part of the county or the city. As long as we had what we needed. Then after you get older, you find out what you didn't have. I didn't know what I didn't have. I'm learning some of that, as of today. What we did not have. You don't know sometimes what you don't have until way late. It's too late, then, to do anything about it, anyway.

CG: What are some ways that segregation played a role into your school experience? Like whether that was at Bate School or like things that you've learned about now from other schools that you didn't have?

Mr. Grey: Just like equipment. Our equipment came from Centre College. We had a Black guy that was the trainer out there. And we got the leftovers. We did get, we were able to buy our own shoes, football and basketball. And we did not have the health equipment, when I say health, a doctor to travel with us. I'm learning all this now that other schools had that. And it's just so much now that I know that we didn't have, we just didn't have it. And then I think the sticky part about this is taxpayers paid for the other schools to have, but we didn't get that. We didn't get it.

CG: Is that something that at the time you knew you didn't have, or it's just taken after the fact learning that other schools had those.

Mr. Grey: After the fact.

WC: you mentioned, you got like the school got things from Centre College. What is your opinion of Centre College? Like, how is has that changed from when you were younger? Like, can you tell me a little bit about that?

Mr. Grey: Let's see, at one time. I didn't care much for Centre College, not at all. And because of they was in the system, too. They was the system. And now I can't say that I'm in love with Centre College. I'm not gonna say that, but I appreciate what Centre College is doing for us, now. They took so much away from us where we couldn't help ourselves. Now, we depending on them to give us back, it's not good to be in a position where you can't do for yourself. Somebody else has to do for you. Because each one of you, I believe you anxious to get out on your own, where you don't have to call home for money and this and that, you wanna be on your own. But here we are as a race of people, constantly, depending on somebody else to give us something. And I hate that I hate having depend on somebody to give me. It's not a good feeling.

WC: What do you feel that Centre took from you?

Mr. Grey: Dignity and opportunity

WC: How so?

Mr. Grey: They took the resources. Didn't share the resources that they had. We couldn't even go to school there. [long pause] I think everybody wants to feel adequate. We would like to be, felt like we were equal, but that's not the case. And it's a systematic thing to keep it that way. So far, I hope it changes, but so far, it's systematically keeping certain people in certain positions.

CG: What are some ways that you feel like? You've seen either Second Street or Danville as a whole or Centre College, kind of change over the course of your life and are those things that have positively impact to you or still negative impacts on you and your family.

Mr. Grey: Well Second Street as I knew it, it doesn't exist. Anymore. Centre College is in a position now to help Blacks know the plight, that Blacks had. Much more than we could do ourselves. So for Centre College today, for what they're doing, the story is being told. And I’m thankful for that because we as the people would never ever have been able to do that, and that’s it.

WC: What is something that you wish was told that we haven't yet kind of uncovered or told for you?

Mr. Grey: It ain't what I wished that wasn't told. It's what I hope you all are hearing. It's enough being told. But how much are you hearing?

Professor Shenton: Mr. Grey, you know a whole lot about Bate School, is that right?

Mr. Grey: Yes.

Professor Shenton: There. Do you want to give us a little bit of your knowledge about Bate School and either the history of it and how your class, uh, your high school class interacted with Bate School and in the community?

Mr. Grey: I'll just tell you in general, Bate School was everything to us as Blacks. And we in, when my mother and them came up, they had the girls basketball teams, and they had the, and they've always had basketball and football. And we had to take pride in what we had. And, our founder, the Bate School founder, he was a slave, and we knew that. We knew his story, and he did a lot for our community. And, and to know that, it's, it's, it's good. And then we had teachers who took interest in you as a student, as a person, like you was their own child. And then, I was, uh, doing some research on one of our teachers. When she taught school, for 55 years in this community, and one article they was recognizing the teachers in the community at different schools. Wait? What they got, they got Edna Toliver, and Jenny Rogers and all these schools, everybody was professor, Mr., and Mrs. But when they got to the Black teachers, they was called by their first name. And that's in the paper. I have the newspaper article. That's degrading that you can't even be Mr., or Mrs. And all these things took it's toll. It took it's toll. So Bate School, we did the best we could with what we had. And we had, a lot of people did well just to exist. Just to exist on what we had. And so, again, it's just the way it was. It's just the way it was.

Professor Shenton: What was the day like at Bate School for you again? A normal day when you walked in the front door, what did it look like? What did it feel like? What did you, what would you do on a daily basis?

Mr. Grey: Hum. Well, I'm going to tell y'all about something about me, and I'm not proud of it, but it happened. Until I got myself together, Bate School was like a prison for me, and I got punished, seemed like every day. And that's when they used to whip you with straps. And I don't know how many I got. I don't know how many I got. But for some reason, for some reason I never got angry. I never got angry.

But when I got to be old enough to play basketball old enough to say, 'Hey, what, what are you doing?' I started studying, I started playing basketball and I saw some people, I thought, 'You're not no smarter than I am.' So I did come up to Salutatorian, third and I was proud of that. But after all of that I went through the principal we had, he uh, he had cancer and he, he was the one that whipped me every day. And I was living in Nicholasville and me and my wife, he knocked on the door, and him and his wife came in and he said, 'I just wanted to see how you doing. I've been concerned about you.'

And so I didn't know he had cancer till later, but, that's, that's something. And then he asked me, where did a gentleman live named Morton Smith? And that was JW Smith to the undertaker's here father. I said, 'Well, he's sitting up there on the porch.' And he went up there and they, they talked a long time 'cause they was the same age and been around. And so I went up to Mr. Morton's house and I said, 'Mr. Morton, I'm ready to buy a house. I'm ready to buy a house. Can you help me in the building loan?' He said, 'You know what? Anybody that Bob Summers will come and see,' that's what his name was, 'I'll do anything in the world for you.'

So that made those whoopings worthwhile because he took enough interest in me to correct me. And then he took enough interest to come and see about me. And when I got to the building loan, they said, 'What do you want? How much you want?' No questions asked. So things like that is what sticks in your life. Sometimes the worst things that happens to you, is the best thing that ever happened to you.

And I, I tell that story all the time because instead of me getting angry, I appreciate it. I don't know why. I didn't like it, but I wasn't nothing I could do. But it helped me a lot. I just want to share that with you all that. Sometimes different people, whether it's your parents, or your teachers, or friends, anybody, if they're trying to help you help yourself, don't get angry. You may not want to do it, but don't get angry at them, 'cause they might be the one that's going to save you from something. They may be the one that has to put in a good word for you. Say, 'Yeah, they, she's, they was kind of rough, but they was good people.' You want somebody to say something good about you at all times. So we, we do have a right to our opinion, and we can tell people off all you want to, but it may come back to bite you.

WC: Do you have any other specific person, or teacher, or place that was really influential like specifically any memories like the one you just shared about Bate School?

Mr. Grey: Well, the Lodge. Uh, when you, when you go through there and you can follow behind people that they made a name in the community, that's a blessing. And when I say I was the Worshipful Master, which is the head of the Lodge, I came behind people like Professor Bate. That's a good feeling. My name is in the record too, just like him. And we had a hundredth anniversary, and I was responsible for that.

So after I'm long gone, I'm still here. I'm still here. And that's a good feeling. But in our community, everybody, even the, the worst, worst of people on Second Street meant something to you because they would say, 'Don't do that.' And they were so drunk they couldn't even talk hardly. But they say, 'I would not do that if I was you.' Look, look at me, look at me. And then we had a, a elderly man. I always have to talk about him because he had dementia, but we always respected him. He was, he was in the military World War I. And he would tell us stories about Château-Thierry in France, and after he get through talking to you, he would say, 'I'm just talking about what I'm talking about.'

So that told me as a young person, listen to everybody, 'cause they may have something to tell you. And he told us that, 'If you don't own that car you're driving, if you making payments on it, it's not yours. If you got a house, you making payments on, it's not yours. Because if you miss a payment, you won't be there anymore, if they so choose.' So. That's what we talk about, entitlement. If you don't own dirt, if you don't own some dirt, if you don't own something that's yours, what you got? What do you have? And you always depend on somebody else to take care of you. It's not a good feeling. Not a good feeling.

KD: Do you have any close friend back in Bate School that you usually hang out with? And are you still in contact with them today?

Mr. Grey: Hum. Yeah, I got a girlfriend that was my classmate. After two marriages and 60 years we hooked up. So yeah, I do have one. (laugh) And we uh, we graduated 1960, so she left town. I saw her again in 1977. Then I saw her again in 2001, and I saw her again in 2008. And I've been seeing her ever since. (laugh) So yeah, that's the one. That's the one. And as, as I speak, some are sick, and some are passing away that's in my class. But the, we're not as close. We do send cards to each other on Christmas, and birthdays. But uh, just like if they came to Danville now, where would I meet them at? Like, on holidays and things, if you want to see somebody, they'd be on Second Street. We don't have that anymore. No where do we meet somewhere like we used to. You had the baseball park. On Fourth of July, different Sundays and different things, you could go there and see people. You don't have that anymore. So when you hear us talking about the dirt, that's a place where you consider it's yours.

WC: Is there anywhere in Danville that you feel uhm, somewhat sense of belonging? Mr. Grey: No. I mean church. Church. But in the community, no.

WC: What was your average class size at Bate School?

Mr. Grey: Pardon?

WC: What was your average class size at Bate School? Like what was your number?

Mr. Grey: In uh, seventh grade, sixth grade, you'd have about 30. But as, as you keep going they would quit school. We ended up with 21. We started out with 40. So that's the way that went. So many just dropped out of school.

KD: What is the common reason for people to drop out of high school like that?

Mr. Grey: Some of them didn't have the parents that had education to encourage them, keep going. And I heard I sat in on on the interview with Jeff and Michael by lady named Eustacia, who didn't have shoes. And there was a lot of kids that didn't have decent clothes to wear. And they felt out of place and they would, they would drop. And then they did. Some people just didn't have a good study habits enough. And if you don't have a good feeling about yourself, sometimes you're not gonna do well. You're not even gonna try.

Professor Shenton: I'm curious about your take, so you've talked a lot about your own experience, uhm, and a lot about some about people who are a little bit older than you. I'm wondering if you would go back and describe what you understand life to have been like for people in your grandparents generation, what was life in Danville like around the turn of the century for the people that you knew. When you were growing up.

Mr. Grey: Basically, basically, there were share croppers.Most people worked in White folks, homes, babysitting, cooking all this. But the problem was no money. No money. So when you don't have the money, you can't provide for your family. And that's the reason why a lot of kids dropped out, too, because they just didn't have the means even to buy lunch, you know when lunch is 20 cents, milk is 2 cents, and you can't afford that. Something's wrong. Something's wrong. So through it, all, it's been a lack of resources, lack of money. If you can't earn a decent salary, you can provide for your family. Even though you want to. And then like with me, my kids went to college, but it wasn't because of me, they were Catholics, and Catholics, uhm, Lexington Catholic and the parish that I went to a Nicholasville. They teamed up. And parish would pay half of the resources. You know the tuition, and then Lexington Catholic would just write it off. That's how my daughter got through school. And so, sometime when you think about life, it ain't all about what you did. It's what somebody else did for you. And so with her, I tell her all the time I did all I could do, but it wasn't about us, because we could not afford to send her a catholic school by ourselves. Then she went to Western and you know grants and all that. But even, even with me making decent money and certain things that happened that somebody else helped.

KD: can you tell me about your parent generation? Like, what did your parents do for work?

Mr. Grey: I don't know how we made it. I'm going to tell you the fact my mother didn't work, and my father did as little as he could. And I, I sometimes I wonder how we made it at all. We wasn't poor, but we didn't have nothing. And I think when I was 14, I delivered papers and I did everything I could to make a little money. So as far as my parents, I will say they didn't do the best they could do, but we didn't have much. And some of that that affected me badly with my attitude about things and didn't get much encouragement either. So, what else I made was because of people on Second Street. I'm talking about the drunks. I'm talking about the old people that done messed up all they could, they kept talking to us, do the best you can do. And then when you look at them, you have to take them at the word. So. That's the way that was.

KD: Can you tell more about how did the financial struggle if I affect you, in general?

Mr. Grey: Well I was on junior varsity team, and the team was going to Somerset, Kentucky. I didn't have no money. All it wanted was 50 cents. So I’ll go try to get to 50 cents from my daddy. He hemmed and hawed around and did this, did that? By the time I got to the bus. I missed it. And I said 50 cents, I can't even get 50 cents. I'm gonna make a change. So I start working from my own 50 cents. So I could have some money in my own, buy my own clothes, some things that I would like to have. So a lot of it, I was forced out to not help the childhood that some people had.

CS: I have a question. I remember that you move from Danville to Lexington in order to find a job to earn more money, uhm, how was your experience in, uh, Bate school or what you started or what you experience? Help be helpful for you to find a job?

Mr. Grey: Yeah. Uhm, I had friends, I had friends that got a job over at square d and they put in a good word. And I found out I had more talent than I thought, not knowing what's available. You don't know whether you can do it or not, but if you got, if you get the opportunity, you might be able to do that. And even when I went to IBM, I never had much computer experience, but I was able to do it. And where they come from I don't know, because we didn't have all that at our school. I didn't learn it at school. So I don't know. Sometimes I guess we have talents and abilities until they explored. You don't know what you can do.

WC: What was the health care like in that you experienced?

Mr. Grey: In Danville? Thank god for the . .  . you see what they call it. This place where we went and got shots. Can't think name. I didn't get shots from a doctor's office. It was community oriented. And then with no money, they sometimes you just I can, I can't remember about dentist. My father worked for a dentist. I did get some dental work done there. We had a Black doctor I remember getting my tonsils taken out there. But this thing is going to the doctor for every little thing. I cut my hand, I cut my finger right here, real bad. The remedy was sut in a paper bag, didnt go to doctor and a hospital. Very few of us got to go there very often. You had to be pretty sick, pretty, pretty bad. So a lot of home remedies, kerosene, coal rocks and everything.

WC: Was there segregation in the hospital?

Mr. Grey: Oh yeah. Yeah, if a few beds that they had, uhm, designated for Blacks, if they was filled it was over. You might to get into hallway or something, but you didn't get in hospital too often. Now. This is during my time. Before that, I don't know exactly how it was, but I know how it is now. But during my time, it very little, very little.

WC: So overall do you think that having experiences like having having to take care of yourself and learn different ways to go about things. How do you think that's affected your life now? And like, how have you grown from those instances?

Mr. Grey: What I found out now, it's hard, it's hard for me to depend on anyone. I, I do all I can to make it for myself. And if I don't, I do it out, but I will not. I will not beg and, and, and try to get people to give me anything. And I don't wanna be beholding to nobody. And if I don't have it, I don't have it. I'm not ever gonna beg somebody to give me something. I'm not gonna do it.

WC: Do you think that having children affected your ability to, I guess, teach those values that you've learned to others?

Mr. Grey: Well sometimes. You all know, as children, I I want all of you to hear me. The parents is the last person you listen to. How am I talking? You're listening to Jeff before you listen to your parents, you hear me? So even my daughter now, it's hard for her to accept that I told her something right? Case in point case in point, she says I don't care no money. I don't have no cash money, I said well you may need cash money sometimes. No, you're from the old school, we don't care no money now I say, okay, she was going to church with me. "Daddy you got 10 dollars?" I said "thought you didn't need no money. Everybody don't take credit cards." You go somewhere, they don't have the PayPal and all this for you to use. And she, it took a heart, took a long time to say daddy was right. So all I’m saying is to some people.

Sometimes parents is the last person you want to listen to. Am I right? So I was the same way. And I could say I’m thankful for Second Street, the school teachers that took enough interest in me to say, you need straight enough.

Professor Shenton: Any other questions you all have? Anything from the audience? Mr. Grey, is there anything else that you would like to tell us before we sign off.

Mr. Grey: No, only thing that I wanna, I, I just wanna say what you all wanna hear. That's important to me. If I, if I can help, like I was helped, that is what is important to me. I don't have a whole lot to talk about myself and all this, but I'm here to help where I can.

All Interviewers: Thank you (so much). Mr. Grey: You are welcome.