Debbie Prince
Parts of this trancription were auto-generated and may contain errors.
Jeffrey Shenton OK, here we go.
Sam Merritt Alrighty, my name is Sam Merritt
Phoenix Staten And I am Phoenix Staten.
Debbie Prince Hello, nice to meet you both.
Sam Merritt
Nice to meet you. Today, I will be interviewing Debbie Prince who lived in Danville from 1953 to 1967 and also recently moved back a couple of years ago. And I'm here with Phoenix Staten and I'm here with Michael Hughes and Doctor Jeffrey Shenton to record this interview.
Today is April 20th, 2022 and we are recording this interview in the Danville Boyle County African American Historical Society. Today we'll be discussing Debbie prince's experiences during the urban renewal process and overall, her experience in Danville.
00:41 Debbie Prince
So I'll just start with my childhood. I was raised on Wilderness Rd, which was all African American families. And then I would also spend a lot of time with my grandmother on Russell St. Both these streets are African American families back then. And we were very close, everybody knew everybody. You know, we knew each other and played together. And stuff like that so. So we did regular stuff like kickball, you know. Just whatever we could play in the sandbox, you know it's not just some games, lots of kids, and then the seniors, we would go to the store for stuff that people weren't able to do for themselves. it was just real tight knit community, it's like a family.
00:01:32 Sam Merritt
Would you describe that area as more rural or urban?
00:01:36 Debbie Prince
It's urban. [inaudible] is only about a mile from here.
00:01:41 Sam Merritt
Did you have any close friends on that street that grew up with you? It sounds like it was very close knit, but any specific ones that really…
00:01:47 Debbie Prince
Oh yeah, sure. I guess the closest one I was with is her name was Debbie Metals at the time. She's now married to a Richardson… well she was married to Richardson. Debbie Richardson. She and I were very very close and then another girl our age. Her name was Joan Jenkins, who is now deceased, but her mother was a hairdresser. There a lot of professional people on the street. The school teacher Miss Dale and a lot of Sunday school teachers. It was a pretty nice street.
00:02:16 Phoenix Staten
So did you also go to school with your closest friends?
00:02:20 Debbie Prince
Oh yes, we all went to Bate School. Bate School. We went to Bate School up until the 8th grade and then integration.
00:02:31 Phoenix Staten
So what was it like going to Bate?
00:02:33 Debbie Prince
It was wonderful going to Bate. Going to Bate it was like family too 'cause everybody knew each other and you knew their brothers and other siblings and it was really close ‘cause it was small, but that's that's what we were used to. And the teachers were very very interested in us individually and they would stay in contact with your parents if you were to do something not so nice. So, it was very personal. You had a relationship with the teachers. It wasn't like you were just a number. They knew your name. They knew your parents and your grandparents, yeah.
00:03:10 Sam Merritt
That's nice, so did you have any favorite subjects? It sounded like before we got started that you had a uh, you liked numbers.
00:03:14 Debbie Prince
I liked math. Of course, I liked math. And English. Those were my two favorites.
00:03:22 Sam Merritt
And you mentioned playing kickball in the street with your friends. Did you have any favorite hobbies when you were growing up over that time? Things you did individually or in groups?
00:03:31 Debbie Prince
Well, it depends on what age you know. We played Barbie dolls when we were younger and as we got older we just skate- you know we had to make our own skateboards back then. You had to take a roller skate and take the wheels off and put them on- you remember that? [asking Michael Hughes] Put them on a piece of wood and skateboards. That's before they had them in the stores, uh-huh. And then we played a game called Jacks. I don't think they even play that anymore. That was real popular for- with the girls specially. And then I had a doll house in our backyard, so I was the only child and most of the other families had larger, more kids, so most people played in my house in my backyard because I had a sandbox, swingset, all this stuff. So they’d come over and play and we’d eat lunch and dinner together sometimes. I go to their house, they come to our house. It’s just real close knit, but everybody- I can name everybody in each house on this street. Even now. I mean not the people there now but that were there when I was living there. Yeah, it was nice.
00:04:37 Sam Merritt
Did you participate in a church growing up or any other community groups like that?
00:04:42 Debbie Prince
Yes, I’m a member and still am a member of First Baptist Church right on 2nd and Walnut. We attended. I mean, yeah there was no option to go. You had to go to Sunday school and church just about every Sunday. So, you knew your Sunday school teachers and you knew your minister. It’s- everybody was just really friendly and close and everybody looked out for each other.
00:05:08 Sam Merritt
When you say that there was no option, do you mean that you felt there was a pressure from your community or…?
00:05:14 Debbie Prince
My parents, my mom. It was just, you know, you’re going to Sunday school. That's just that. Unless you're really, really sick or something.
00:05:25 Phoenix Staten
And I know earlier you said before integration everything felt like a tight knit community in your school. I kind of want to ask how integration impacted other experiences, if it did.
00:05:37 Debbie Prince
Well, it impacted like our… Like the movie theater, it was segregated, so we had a particular area that we had to sit in, the Blacks. Well, we were "colored" then. Where this upstairs in the back, you might have heard this, we had to sit in the balcony. So, when you came to the movies like box office on one side, there were the white kids and on this side were the Black kids. So everything was separate. They went through this entrance we went to that entrance. The concession stand were on this side there on that side, but we had to go upstairs to sit and they sit downstairs so that impacts us a lot. And then as far as eating out, we couldn't do that. We weren't able to sit at the counter and have a ice cream cone or anything. And you can come and order it, but you couldn't eat it there, you had to get it and leave. And then I didn't experience this, but my mom, they couldn't even try on out like if they want to buy outfit they couldn't try the clothes on and definitely not the hats. You couldn't put the hat on our heads. Yeah, that’s sad.
00:06:52 Sam Merritt
I've been told about some activities that have taken place in the Danville community, such as like the Soul of 2nd St Party or even like youth groups such as the Orchid Girls. Do you know people who were involved in that? Were you involved in that yourself?
00:07:06 Debbie Prince
No, I wasn't old enough for the Orchid girls. My grandmother was a member of Orchid girls. Now the soul Streets soul festival, I attend every year that we have it. It’s been what five years or… [asking Michael Hughes]
00:07:21 Michael Hughes
We had it five years before we got interrupted.
00:07:22 Debbie Prince
The last five years before the pandemic. So, but I wasn’t old enough to belong to the social club. But they were really big, though. I remember my grandmother- them having the meetings. They would go every month to somebody else's house and you would serve in or some kind of some kind of snacks or something, but they had several social clubs, beauticians club, orchid girls, merrymakers. All kinds of social clubs. They would have like fish fries and sell fish out their houses and stuff like that it was fun.
00:07:55 Sam Merritt
Now in Danville, you've already listed like some of your family connections like you spent a lot of time with your grandmother. Whether it's familial or non familial, who would you - or it could be multiple people - who would you describe as someone who's impacted you the most?
00:08:13 Debbie Prince
My mother and my grandmother, she. She was born in 1905, but she still attended- She graduated Kentucky State University in Frankfort and so did my father, but my mom was such a hard worker and a go getter- they all were three. Good, go workers- good go getters, I'm sorry, and so I would watch them. My grandma especially, she ran a business. She was a beautician for over 50 years. So, she was self employed and pretty successful with that. She did really well and then my mom works at a factory and that's why she works 2nd shift and that's why I went to boarding school. One of the reasons I went away, but it was a good experience.
00:08:55 Phoenix Staten And did your grandmother have her own storefront or?
00:08:58 Debbie Prince
Uh-huh [yes], she worked out of her home but she had interns that worked with her, sometimes that she would teach and they go off and get their own business. But yeah, she worked out of her home for over 50 years. All her customers were African American. Yeah, back then on that street, actually on that street, Russell street, there were three beauticians and they all did pretty well. Miss Beatrice, Myrtle and my grandmother on Russell street. Miss Beatrice, Catherine Napier, Melon Summers.
There were several beauticians. Now we couldn't. Of course we couldn't go swimming at the at the public swimming pool. Eventually, I don't know when we got the pool in Batewood homes.
00:10:03 Michael Hughes 1960.
00:10:04 Debbie Prince
OK, we got, we finally got a pool in Batewood Homes which is a housing project and we’d go there and swim. It was for African Americans only. Well I guess anybody could come, but it was mostly for us. But the public pool we weren't allowed to go to. Yeah, a lot of things, we just I guess I don't know. We just didn't think anything about it. And actually sitting in the balcony at the movies really was better. We didn't know it was better until after, you know, once we had the choice to sit downstairs, I still would prefer to sit upstairs. You could see better. Yeah so. Back in those days, those were the good old days, really. And my mom, she was very active too. She was at- basically she did a lot. She was a homecoming queen. My dad was a football player, you know. So it was fun. So I wasn’t old enough to remember all the restaurants and stuff on 2nd street, but our church was a huge church on the corner right there, but the first one burned down; it got burned. I mean it was, it was bad. It was a beautiful church and then they rebuilt, uh-huh? But you know, everybody knew each other back then.
00:11:18 Sam Merritt
Do you know around what year that took place with the church?
00:11:22 Debbie Prince
The church burned? I was te- like ‘63 I think. I think I was around 10.
00:11:29 Michael Hughes
It burnt Christmas Eve, 1966.
00:11:31 Debbie Prince
Oh ‘66, I was 13.
00:11:33 Michael Hughes
And it was built, reopened a year later, in 1967
00:11:39 Debbie Prince
OK, I know I was too young to drive like we were running up there. Everybody said fire, fire. And we were running up there. Everybody was just crying. It was a sad day. Yeah, anything else.
00:11:55 Phoenix Staten
So it sounds like the church was pretty big in creating community. How did you all do that after the church burned down?
00:12:04 Debbie Prince
Well, I can't remember where we had services during the period that we didn't have one, but we just- I think they continued services.
00:12:13 Michael Hughes
Yeah, they had services at the Bate School in the basement.
00:12:15 Debbie Prince
OK, OK. Until we could rebuild, then once we rebuilt, we've been going ever since.
00:12:28 Sam Merritt
Yeah, you talked a little bit about experience at that boarding school. One, would you talk a little bit about that experience and then two, have you seen changes in Danville pre and post that experience?
00:12:41 Debbie Prince
Well, when I first left to go to boarding school, like I say, we were still segregated and so the boarding school I went to was all Black. It was co-ed, it was in South Carolina. But I would still come back here like during the summer. There's a big difference. It was down South, but it seemed like it was more… the people that were there were more friendly, you know we were here too, but I guess by the South people more welcoming and welcoming to their homes and things like that. When I came back, you could see a difference 'cause of the integration by then you know. So you saw difference like in the sports like the teams and stuff like that. Like especially drum majors. You know, it's just different. But the school I went to, there were kids there from everywhere in New York, Chicago, so I got to meet a lot of people diverse groups. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was nice. I didn't want to go at first, but then I liked it.
00:13:46 Phoenix Staten
And were you the only one from Danville who went to that boarding school?
00:13:47 Debbie Prince
No there was another girl that went there. She went there before me. Her name was Linda. She was a year ahead of me. OK yeah, but she was only child too and her mom was a school teacher.
00:14:00 Phoenix Staten
And were you all friends or?
00:14:01 Debbie Prince
Uh-huh [yes]. Yeah we still are. Yeah uh-huh, but she she never has to come back here to live. She lives in Atlanta. So I lived several places I lived in Nashville. Well, that's where I went to school, so I just stayed after I graduated and then I got a job in Lexington. I came back here, then they transferred me to Louisville. I was a claims adjuster at that time. And then I got transferred to Florida and I stayed there for a couple of years until I got a better job back into Louisville. For more money. So I stayed in Louisville for 31 years and then I came back here. My mom is getting older, well she is older, and I came back to help her out. That's a big change from Louisville to Danville too. After being gone so long. Well, it's good to see, I know almost everybody here. A lot of people have never left, they just, you know they've been here.
00:51:04 Phoenix Staten
Yeah, and you were talking and this is off camera, but you were talking about having a bit of culture shock returning back to Danville. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that feels like.
00:15:13 Debbie Prince
Well, I'm I miss all the restaurants. I like to eat out 'cause I'm single so I really like to get out. So here's you don't-, you have slim pickings as far as restaurants. But I love not having to drive so far from point A to point B, in Louisville it takes you- took me half an hour just to get to work, you know, so I like that part. The other part is by being so small sometimes It could be. I don't know people gossip more. Because they have more free time I guess on their hands. And then the movie theaters they don't have like the Black movies we have in Louisville like the Black Panther or stuff like that. It didn't come here. Yeah, they don't show stuff like that here. You have to, go to Lexington and see something like that. Even that movie The Help {inaudible} It wasn't here. Uh, and it won, you know, Oscars and everything else. But then I don't know why they still show them here. So something like things like that and then. It says certain things in Louisville I mean, it's like the tall buildings and stuff. I know it sounds silly and the radio stations stuff like that, huh? Other than that, it's it's home. It’s home yeah.
00:16:28 Sam Merritt
You talked about transferring for jobs over the years. Did you hold occupation in Danville at any point in?
00:16:34 Debbie Prince
Um, my first job was at the Boyle County High School. I was a receptionist at the Board of Education, answered the phone and do the family and stuff like that. Until I got a real job. Yeah, I worked here with Boyle County then I left here and went to Lexington. My career though, was in manufacturing. That's what the good money was. So, there's a company called Phillip Morris. They made Marlboro cigarettes. It was one of the biggest employers in Louisville. I was hired in management so I stayed there for 22 years and they closed because all the people stopped smoking and stuff. So they closed in 20… in 2000, so and then I took some courses to start doing income taxes. So now I work with a nonprofit organization doing income taxes for low income families. We don't charge the people at all, but we get paid for doing it. So, my site, I’m a manager there and. I did my count Monday. We had served over almost 1800 people in my site, so it's pretty big. It was pretty busy. Yeah, it's basically volunteers helpers. Not many people get. It's mostly volunteer people. Something like the AARP, but different. Similar AARP, they do free tax preparation. And so I retired in 2019, and then they called me back because of pandemic, a lot of people didn't want to come back, so I was getting bored. Anyway, retirement. So my my director call he said how would you feel about coming back to work? I said when do I start so I started next Monday so I've been back ever since.
00:18:20 Phoenix Staten
And that's here in Danville?
00:18:22 Debbie Prince
Well, it's based out of Louisville. So what the deal he made me. I go to Louisville once a week but I get paid to work from home the rest of the week. So I go there on Mondays and then I work from home. They scan the documents on the computer, like the drivers license, Social Security card, all the W-2s so they scan it and you can see it right there. A lot of people work from home doing that now.
00:18:45 Sam Merritt
Are you having to use a zoom to do that ever or any of those platforms?
00:18:49 Debbie Prince
No, just the scanning. No, I haven't done any zoom. But I think we have one meeting like that. Anything else?
00:19:08 Phoenix Staten
I was just going to ask you, you know, as a professional in Danville and going to Louisville, have you seen there be a shift in what the professionals look like when you were younger to now?
00:19:20 Debbie Prince
Well, of course, they’re younger, uh-huh. And I think… I don't know. It seems like when I first started in the job place back in the in the 70s, I guess I think we were more serious about it and trying to work your way up and it seems like now the millennials like y’all are a little bit different, they do things different, like want to make a lot of changes where sometimes the changes are for better, but there's a difference in the way they work and everything. Their work practices. You know, I don't think- Not everybody, but you don't see a lot of people that really dedicated as you know -Well, at least where I work anyway, uh, but. For the most part, most people are serious about moving up the ladder and stuff like that. Did I answer the question OK?
00:20:19 Phoenix Staten
Yes, and is there a community of Black professionals in Danville right now, would you say?
00:20:23 Debbie Prince
No, I don't think so, is there? No, they have lots of groups in Louisville though, like CPA's and stuff like that.
00:20:25 Michael Hughes
This sort of culture that was lost Going back to urban renewal the culture, they never got a chance to develop. And we had doctors, we had dentists, and back then when all of this changed, they left for greemer pastures.
A lot of people from here, they leave for school. And they never come back. Just come back to visit. See me, I never came back home other than to visit. Because there’s so much more to do.
Michael Hughes
Because we had doctors. We had dentists. And all of this changed, they all left for greener pastures.
00:20:59 Debbie Prince
A lot of people from here that leave for school. And they just don’t come back, I mean 'cause… just come back to visit. Like me, I never came back after college until now, just to visit. 'cause there's so many more opportunities and things to do. It's not the town itself, I mean, the people. it’s just, it’s… there's not a lot of opportunities… or restaurants. That's the main thing.
00:21:28 Jeffrey Shenton
Can I ask a prior to urban renewal, where were the doctors? The Black doctors and Black dentists located in town? Do you know where they were?
00:21:35 Debbie Prince
Well, I wasn’t born when Dr. Jody and them were around.
00:21:39 Michael Hughes
Some of them was on 4th street and down on Warren St.. And Doctor David Stafford and doctor umm…
00:21:51 Debbie Prince
You remember them?
00:21:53 Michael Hughes
I’m thinking Dr... I don't know them. I know Doctor Jody because he was…
00:22:00 Debbie Prince
- I know his son. I don't remember…
00:22:01 Michael Hughes
I don't know him, but I know he was my doctor.
00:22:03 Debbie Prince
Oh he was? OK?
00:22:05 Michael Hughes
And we lived in the apartment where his doctor's office was. came out. I was trying to think of the other doctor. His original office was over top the till’s pool room.
00:22:22 Debbie Prince
So that was in the 60s, right?
00:22:23 Michael Hughes
Yeah.
00:22:24 Debbie Prince
When I was born I just was little.
00:22:32 Michael Hughes
Y’all go ahead… [group laughter] Doctor Fry. Doctor Fry’s office was. It was called the fry, right across from First Baptist.
00:22:49 Debbie Prince
OK, those buildings were before urban renewal?
00:22:52 Michael Hughes
Yeah
00:22:52 Jeffrey Shenton
On 2nd Street right down… across.. okay.
00:22:56 Michael Hughes
On the second block. It’s actually where you can see the pool room, it was over top of that. Originally, I don't know if he quit practicing, you know about whatever means are because I know in the years that I grew up there it was an apartment house.
Debbie Prince
OK.
Michael Hughes
I'm saying.
Debbie Prince
Everyone here is saying.
Debbie Prince
Doctor Dorry lived on Woodhills Road too
Michael Hughes
Yeah, he had an office off Warren Street too, I don't know where. They were staffers are for the young ones. For you, probably before Doctor Dotingham I don't know that much about where his office is and everything. There was in the dentist office I think was in the bottom of a Masonic Lodge building.
Debbie Prince
OK.
Michael Hughes
I don't. I don't know who the Dentist was. I'm sure people talked about a dentist.
Debbie Prince
But the teachers back then they were just so interested in everybody individually. That was the best part about Bate.
Michael Hughes
That was. Another cultural… When high schools integrated and five highly qualified black male teachers, was not even given a chance to… was not offered a job, that's a culture shock there. You know? And teachers have not really even they haven't, you know. That just made teachers that were qualified go away from Danville, they all had to leave Danville to get a job.
Debbie Prince
Right, to get a position. Yeah 'cause Centre College didn’t employ anyone but like people in housekeeping and in the kitchen.
Michael Hughes
Custodial jobs. I don’t think they had no professors
Debbie Prince
No professors, not them. Not even in the office I don't think.
Michael Hughes
It was many years before they even created a black student union.
Debbie Prince
I think Gordon Bennett was one of the first ones. Pat’s husband, Gordon.
Michael Hughes
I know he's one the first foot- he was the first black to get in a football game. You know, he was going to be in, you and him, him and his wife. You know I was telling you other day that I had some people that had a story to tell.
Debbie Prince
And they went to Centre, well he did.
Sam Merritt
On the note of Centre, do you have any like… it seems that you do have some preconceived notions or perceptions of Centre College. What about your interactions with the college or those…?
Debbie Prince
Not really, I just know they didn’t employ blacks back then, but a lot of places didn't you know? Except for like I say, the housekeeping and kitchen cooks. But as far as the offices. Now, I've never seen I’ve never been there, but I just heard they didn't have any blacks there. They do now I think like Cheryl Burton and And yeah, so yeah. Yeah, but no. Then, at the Kentucky school for the deaf, I don’t know if they employed…
Michael Hughes
Same thing.
Debbie Prince
I don't think so. No, back then no.
Michael Hughes
They had what they called the “Colored Department”, but is the teachers in the “Colored Department” were White.
Debbie Prince
Oh, OK.
Debbie Prince
Did they have black students, even? KSD?
Michael Hughes
They had they actually had, 35 years before Bate School, so, 1912 thirty-five years before that, you know. Yeah, that's when they had the Colored Department was created from KSD. But it was, it was kept pretty much separate from the main campus.
Phoenix Staten
So kind of thinking about professional life, still, from your perspective, how did urban renewal impact your parents professions?
Debbie Prince
Well, Like I said it's just my mom. I don't think she was too much impacted. Wilderness Road wasn't impacted at all. Of course,, 2nd St being gone you know that impacted her life a lot 'cause that's where they came to eat. You know restaurants and hairdressers and all the stuff was on 2nd St so that impacted it. And then, I don’t think it would have impacted her as far as her job or anything like that?
Michael Hughes
I, I think mainly just taking away 2nd street…
Debbie Prince
2nd St, because that's the only place they had to go for entertainment, you know. So then you were forced to go to or we had. The Swingland. You probably heard that there was a club and a Ponderosa. You know that was on old down Second other in a Second Street and then Duncan Hill. We still had fun. We didn’t know any better so. Was still fun.
And you may have heard about the rock fence pinned down there in Batewood Homes where everybody sat and played music and talked and that was really a lot of fun. I was there every day in the summer time, 'cause I would come home for summer so I went there every day.
Phoenix Staten
And you said it's called Rockwood fan.
Debbie Prince
The rock fence. It's a big fence made out of rock and it's right there at the entrance when you turn into Batewood Homes on two sides, on both sides of the entrance. It's kind of curved like and you would sit up -- Everybody sat up there. There is like a big park and you sit up there on the fence. It's a big fence I mean, about as wide as you need to sit on it, you know? I mean, your legs hang down you sit up on the fence. They have music playing, you know? Just talking trash and having fun.
Jeffrey Shenton
Do you have any specific memories from the rock fence? We've heard about this a lot, so we're trying to get as many stories about the rock fence as possible so do you have any particular memories?
Debbie Prince
None that I care to share. *laughter* I got a lot of stories but, it's not for this setting.
Michael Hughes
He's talking about everybody that's been interviewed. Everybody mentions the rock there everybody.
Debbie Prince
I mean I Was there I was buying outfits I would go shopping to go sit on a rock fence. I really would. And then of course I wasn’t driving. So, I walked down through projects when I got 16. My mother had a ‘65 Mustang. I never forget that, and I would take her to work and I'll ride down to the rock fence and sit on the fence until time to go pick her up. That's just about where everybody went it was like the hub. That's where you went.
Michael Hughes
It was a social hub.
Jeffrey Shenton
On a typical day. How many people would be there and like was it, was it all constantly rotating people or was it the same group all the time or?
Debbie Prince
It's mostly the same group, but some people didn't come as much as others, but some people don't come every day. But, I say about 40-50 people, at a time.
Michael Hughes
It's kind of like growing into the rock fence. You know when you got old enough to go down to the projects. That that was the thing you wanted to do, was go down to the rock fence. That was cool.
Debbie Prince
That's where you’d see everybody. If you weren’t sitting on rock fence people just riding by like it was a park they just ride through there and see who's on the rock fence, then ride back out, come back an hour later to see who’s on the rock fence and ride back out.
Michael Hughes
That’s what it was. To come down the projects riding and looking at the rock fence? Even if you wasn’t even gonna stay, it would be just Riding…
Debbie Prince
Just riding through. If you were looking for somebody they will probably be down by the rock fence.
Michael Hughes
I think one thing I know that if you lived out of town. You lived in Lexington and you wanted to see something So you came to Danville and you wanted to find somebody.
Debbie Prince
Rock fence
Michael Hughes
Projects that are out there. Cause somebody Somebody gonna tell you oh they at home?
Debbie Prince
Or they were here they just left
Michael Hughes
It was a connection point too.
Debbie Prince
That was my favorite place to go. And the Ponderosa. That's another club. We called it a club big building cement building. Michael played, he was the DJ there.
Michael Hughes
I cut my teeth into Ponderosa.
Debbie Prince
Did you?
Michael Hughes
Yeah, you know, pretty much my musical Plus DJ and the band too.
Debbie Prince
And our last name is Prince, that's before Prince and I remember you played his. First record he said this might be your brother and you played his first of this first LP or first - “I want to be your lover” I think it was and then he became, I mean the rest is, famous, I mean, history.
Michael Hughes
'cause it was to me my thing was to go to Lexington and I’d even go to Louisville to the record shop and couldn't wait to get back to Danville and play you know, Introduce the new songs to Danville. That was it.
Jeffrey Shenton
Is the Ponderosa down near the rock fence by the project?
Debbie Prince
Now it’s out with you know where Duncan hill is by the cemetery? Out that way out that way.
Jeffrey Shenton
OK, it was Swingland that was across from there, right?
Debbie Prince
Across from rock fence you go over there and play with. Pinball machines…
Michael Hughes
The area was pretty much solid. You know, you go to Swingland probably. Go to Ponderosa for the night was up and up at the Ponderosa.
Debbie Prince
If you were driving you would be at the Ponderosa in three minutes from Swingland.
Michael Hughes
People from the projects would walk from The Ponderosa.
Jeffrey Shenton
Do you know when the and why the rock fence was taken out? Do you know how we know anything about that story?
Debbie Prince
I don't know.
Michael Hughes
I've heard Josh, Who is the city… he said it was taken out because of, for number of reasons. You know, some say because it because, you know, people hiding behind the rock fence and throwing rocks at cars and then you know, there's several reason. I'm sure that was right, but it you know it. It didn't destroy the memory of it. 'cause everybody knows about it and talk to anybody and you know you know, know about the rock fence so… Yeah, yeah, just not. Well, that's everything because every interview. We've had somebody mentioned the rock fence.
Debbie Prince
Yeah, I used to get out. Of school go change clothes and rock fence.
Michael Hughes
And then the days that the swimming pool was there, rock fence was there, It was just like…
Debbie Prince
It was like a park , it's housing projects, but to us it's more like a park.
Michael Hughes
And mainly because that's what we had. We had, you know we didn't have anything else, no, you know Country clubs and Hangouts.
Debbie Prince
Going down memory lane.
Phoenix Staten
Yeah, well, so typically was it school kids that were at the Rock Fence
Debbie Prince
I say anywhere from like 25 on to 16.
Michael Hughes
It was more or less. There was a group that was 25. They kind of hung something that was young and they had. You know, gathering on the rock because it was a big fence.
Debbie Prince
Yes, it was huge. It went all way around you know. It's on two, both sides. Some people had their own little spots where they’d always sit.
Phoenix Staten
So were there like designated seats or oh.
Debbie Prince
No, most of the time you know if you got there you could sit in your same seats you were yesterday.
Phoenix Staten
OK.
Sam Merritt
I'm trying to paint a mental image of this space in my head. So when you say the word fence it makes me think it’s enclosing something
Debbie Prince
It’s an entrance. Like it’s a street and then on both sides of the entrance is a fence on both sides. That's like, uh, entrance and then like half they would curved like half circle, [inaudible]. It wasn't just a straight fence. It's kind of curved. I sat kind of like at the curve. So I could see everybody.
Phoenix Staten
I was just about to ask, did you have a good view of everything?
Michael Hughes
An interesting thing that we have no so far. We have nobody that you said you had a picture.
Debbie Prince
It's just a picture of Ellis. You can't really see the fence. He's by the fence. It’s like a- he’ll show you.
Jeffrey Shenton
Do you know the history of that housing project? When was that put in, do you know, and how long did It come in.
Debbie Prince
Gosh it’s been there a long time. It's changed now.
Michael Hughes
‘52 I think… in 1950 they created McIntire Homes for the White community and and in 52 till they opened Batewood Homes with for the Black community.
Debbie Prince
I know I was there my whole life. It's still there, they just took the rock fence away for whatever reason. Yeah, but Michael was our DJ, still is.
Phoenix Staten
So was the rock fence the after school hangout area and then later in the night it kind of sounds like The Ponderosa was like the music scene.
Debbie Prince
Right, and while most of the kids couldn’t go to the Ponderosa so, so I mean if you were 16 or 17 you could go to the Ponderosa. It was pretty good on Friday night, Saturday night, hang at the rock fence on Sunday.
Michael Hughes
It kind of look like something like this *shows a drawing that he made while Ms. Prince was speaking* Cuz it curved around.
Debbie Prince
Curved around- And then out of the street, that's the street right there.
Michael Hughes
[inaudible] Housing project you know, people just come from second street… It ain’t Very good. But I’m just kind of showing you this how you know this? On Sunday evening, Saturday evening, this whole thing was full of people. You know, people sitting people, standing, you know. I mean, you didn't have to sit. on the rock there's a lot of people there stand around, you know?
Debbie Prince
Stand, sit, I get there early though so I could get a seat. You kind of had to hop up on it cause it was high up
Michael Hughes
That was the thing with guys they help the girls sit up on the fence. That was, you know, especially trying to get a girlfriend
Debbie Prince
Yeah, it's kind of high up.
Michael Hughes
Yeah, it was high.
Jeffrey Shenton
Michael, if you label those on your drawing, I'll just put it on the camera so that we have a record of that. Is that OK? Just put what’s Swing land and the fence and then the project.
Michael Hughes
Let me do a little better, that don’t look too cool right there.
Debbie Prince
I know what it is though, if you know it, you know.
Phoenix Staten
So from what It looked like the swing, so it's called Swingland? So is that kind of the park area?
Debbie Prince
The Swingland's a building and they had dances in there.
Michael Hughes
It was very good.
Phoenix Staten
OK.
Debbie Prince
During the day it would be empty, it had like pinball machines, I don’t know if we had a pool table or not, but that is everyone having some kind of function there. People just go there and play pinball. And it had like a jukebox, you know, play music, people dance. But like right across the fence to swing land.
Michael Hughes
Let's see.
Phoenix Staten
And that was any age range? Could any age go?
Debbie Prince
Not small kids, teenagers, and 16 and up. Unless you snuck away from your parents, and went down there just to see what was going on. *asking Michael Hughes* So you don't have a picture with the rock fence though do you?
Debbie Prince
I did.
Michael Hughes
I don't know I'd do anything because everybody we haven't been able to find none. I’ve been, what, 10 years collecting pictures? And I still don’t have it.
Debbie Prince
Still haven’t found one?
Michael Hughes
No, and I know with all those folks hanging out someone had...
Debbie Prince
I took some pics of the projects, I don’t, it wasn’t like I ever took a picture of the actual fence.
Michael Hughes
That one you got, If you can pull it out-
Debbie Prince
The one of Ellis is in one of our photo albums.
Michael Hughes
Yeah, it might be- we might be able to get some kind of…
Debbie Prince
The rocks were made like, they wasn’t just regular like rocks.
Phoenix Staten
Like stones?
Debbie Prince
Mmmhmm, like a like some like a stone fence, yeah?
Michael Hughes
And I've heard that it was made out of type thing that it didn't- it aged, you know. That it was certain kind of rocks that, you know, they stood the test of time, you know.
Debbie Prince
It was a very, very sturdy fence. Like I said it was like- cause you could sit up there and your legs would hang down over the side, just sit up there. Yeah it’s nice y’all would like it.
Phoenix Staten
I can imagine in the Danville Spring Day, the breeze.
Debbie Prince
Ah, it was fun and music played all the time…
Michael Hughes
This is just. This is Swingland. *shows us a picture*
Debbie Prince
See that's where they have parties.
Michael Hughes
They had a stage and these are 3 ladies that was on the stage and back again.
Debbie Prince
They sing, are they singing?
Michael Hughes
I think they were just…
Debbie Prince
Pretend like they're singing?
Michael Hughes
Yeah. They were part of the Voguette Club and part of the… this is the Voguette Club. That that's the Swingland- that's probably the same night. Of course this is the Orchid Club.
Debbie Prince
This Miss Ruby?
Michael Hughes
Yeah, that's set up. A lot of the social clubs, I don't think we even got to the social clubs, yet. We had lot of social clubs. There so, there was one time. And then when it was like 44 social clubs. So that's what people had to do. They would have-
Debbie Prince
They would give dances and stuff and you know charge you to get in. They made money. Have live bands most time.
Michael Hughes
Swingland, there was another club, Hollywood.
Debbie Prince
Oh, I forgot about the Hollywood. I never got to go in there I was too young. It's on 2nd St too. It's not there anymore. Well, yes it is. It's an apartment The Duplex or something?
Michael Hughes
There was a duplex.
Debbie Prince
Anything else?
Sam Merritt
Just a little more.
Debbie Prince
Okay, I’m not in a hurry.
Sam Merritt
We spent a lot of time talking about these community spaces that both of you have participated in. Do you see similar opportunities for black youth today to enjoy spaces like that? Are you aware of any?
Debbie Prince
I don't think the black kids today have much to do except for play sports and stuff like that. They don't have- we had a recreation center where we could go have parties and stuff as far as I know. Do you know anything, Michael, where the young kids go these days? Where they hang out?
Michael Hughes
*redrawing the rock fence from the first sketch he made* I was concentrating on my art. *laughter*
Debbie Prince
He was asking, the younger generation these days, what do they do for entertainment?
Michael Hughes
There’s not much and they’re so much different nowadays too because the younger generation don't value, you know, like we did company you know, company...
Debbie Prince
Right. Well, they haven't, You know they do video, you all probably know the video games more indoors and we were more outdoors, riding our bikes and stuff like that.
Michael Hughes
They don't dance like we use to dance. You know, they dance…
Debbie Prince
… by themselves, we woild like slow dance with a guy and stuff, right now everybody just dancing by themselves.
Michael Hughes
Right. And you know you waited all night to get that special dance.
Debbie Prince
And the guy the guy to come and ask you, put the hand out saying you know ‘you want to dance’ and if you said ‘no’ they had to walk way back across the room. The kids today just don't do things like we used to do. Then we also liked roller skating, but we didn't have a skating rink here and the one that we were closest to was in Harrodsburg. Blacks could only go on Wednesdays. They had a big sign, Sunday whites only, Monday whites only, Tuesday whites only, Wednesday colored only, Thursday whites yeah. Yeah, so they had a bus. I think that the Methodist Church had- there's a bus and we would leave on Wednesday, all ready to go skating ring all go there on Wednesday’s and skate we didn’t think anything about it not being fair at the time. We were just happy to go skating every Wednesday.
Phoenix Staten
And you said.. Sorry go ahead
Debbie Prince
I would say nowadays I don't think they have… we have a skating ring here though. I don't know how much they participate, but we do have a skating ring. You know how to skate?
Phoenix Staten
I do. I do. I can't skate well.
Debbie Prince
You can't skate backwards or anything?
Phoenix Staten
No, I just, I use the fours and go forward, that's all I know how to do, yeah. But you said on Wednesdays, there were buses that would take folks to…
Debbie Prince
We had one bus, like a school bus and then they would take the kids they wanted to go skate to Harrodsburg.
Phoenix Staten
Do you know who organized the school bus?
Debbie Prince
I don't know, they picked us up at the Methodist Church.
Michael Hughes
You know, I don’t remember doing that.
Debbie Prince
You might been in Vietnam then… No, because we were too little to drive.
Michael Hughes
No, I didn't, I didn't.
Debbie Prince
You didn't skate
Michael Hughes
I went
Debbie Prince
OK, we got the bus.
Debbie Prince
Yeah, it's.
Michael Hughes
I wasn’t very good at it. I always wanted to be, I always said, you know I don't…
Debbie Prince
I think the church might have something to do with it.
Michael Hughes
I think the church did.
Debbie Prince
It might be the church’s bus.
Michael Hughes
Because I used to go over there on ...Right? I didn't ride with them on the bus.
Debbie Prince
You were probably old enough to drive us, so we weren't old enough to drive. Well my group, my the friends I hung with we we’re old enough, so we’d catch the bus. I was like 13. 12 or 13.
Sam Merritt
It was just mentioned that. Well, one that you went to the church on Wednesdays.
Debbie Prince
Sunday school
Sam Merritt
Sunday School on Wednesdays to catch the bus, but was it meaning to happen there…
Debbie Prince
It wasn’t Sunday school it was just us in front of the church. The bus will be parked there waiting for us to come at the church.
Sam Merritt
OK, was that the main activity happening there or almost sounded like there could have been a youth group.
Debbie Prince
Well, I can't remember who the adults were, but we just need to be there at a certain time and then they brought us back and let us out at, you know, your parents pick you up or something at the church. I think I'm thinking the church organized it. We had chaperones on the bus. It was fun. Did Michael finish his drawing?
Jeffrey Shenton
If you approve.
Debbie Prince
Yeah, that looks like it, yeah.
Michael Hughes
I don't think it’s gonna win no Pulitzer prize
Debbie Prince
Well it gives you an idea of what it was. That's the Swingland over there and [inaudible] if you want to walk across the street, that's the Main St. So just walk across the street to the Swingland. And back this way, there used to be a swimming pool right here. There's basketball courts back there too. It's like a park, but it’s like a housing project, but to us we treated like a like a park.
Michael Hughes
Like a park.
Debbie Prince
They had basketball courts out there.
Michael Hughes
And that’s what we had
Sam Merritt
And that was your spot, right there?
Sam Merritt
Or that side right there.
Debbie Prince
Oh yeah this side.
Debbie Prince
I didn’t sit on this side at all I don’t think, only this side. Because I was coming from this way, so I would cut through the grass and go over there. That’s the grassy areas where people stand and stuff. Good old days, yeah? Yeah, that was me right here. And then some people just drive through and just ride all of it back and see who's you know, playing ball and then you just turn around this, and go back out.
Michael Hughes
There was another thing. If you had a nice car, new car, then you to show it off. That’s the very first place you go in the projects after the dealership.
Debbie Prince
I had a little Mustang I used keep it down there.
Michael Hughes
People did. I never had a new car though.
Debbie Prince
Back then?
Michael Hughes
No, so I guess I rode my bicycle.
Debbie Prince
He didn’t ride no bike, I never saw you on a bike.
Phoenix Staten
Would anybody ever park their cars like along 2nd St?
Debbie Prince
It's so busy I don't think so.
Michael Hughes
No no.
Debbie Prince
You parked like there were parking spaces in the projects you parked down there.
Michael Hughes
[inaudible] or maybe over in Swingland lot.
Debbie Prince
Yeah, they have a parking lot right on the side. Now we parked right over here all down into here. This is busy, you know second street is a pretty busy street, so you can't park.
Michael Hughes
The drive from rock fence to the back of the project was long drive on Sundays.
Debbie Prince
It seems like it, huh?
Michael Hughes
On certain days there was cars lined up on both sides all the way up.
Debbie Prince
There’s everybody waving to each other.
Michael Hughes
Talking… people in the project was cool, you know 'cause they, you know, they was all everybody…
Debbie Prince
They lived there, you know.
Michael Hughes
Yeah, and then a lot of Sundays I would set up in the projects. You know, set my DJ equipment up in project and never had a problem, people would be like you can plug in my apartment, you can plug in my apartment.
Debbie Prince
You have electrical outlet.
Michael Hughes
And when I needed an electrical outlet, you know, and everybody was like ‘plug in mine.’ We partied till dark. You know, there’d be basketball people playing basketball on one side. And back in the days, the softball, we all play softball. But those, you know, so those days were…
Debbie Prince
It was fun.
Michael Hughes
It was what we had, and what we love, you know?
Debbie Prince
I don't think they do anything like that now here.
Michael Hughes
Although we are doing a, on the 7th of July, we are gonna have my band playing.
Debbie Prince
Oh yeah, Harveys. Oh, no I’m thinking about derby day
Michael Hughes
I'm gonna play in the projects.
Debbie Prince
Yeah, I'll be there.
Michael Hughes
Just you know, thought about bring it back type thing. {inaudible}
Debbie Prince
Got something?
Sam Merritt
We've talked about the unfortunate deconstruction of many of these community centers and I was wondering if you had a perspective on how either the local city government or Centre College, because they were involved in this process, could heal some of the damage that they've done to the black community in Danville?
Debbie Prince
Oh yeah, they could build a Community Center or something like that, you know, which wouldn't be that expensive. Or either like a water park for kids down in Batewood homes a lot of space down there for all that. It's called Michael Smith Park. They renamed that area Michael Smith Park ,not Batewood homes, but there’s this one little area there's a park. And I think the city is looking into adding some things to it. I don't know about a pool with like a like a water park or something you know, and some picnic tables and grills and stuff like. That there's something people can do. Get outside and do. It's been just… you were in the meeting too. The city's looking at doing something like that.
Michael Hughes
It's going to happen for sure, and we, Josh, who is over there. He's aware of the rock fence culture that it creates. We can't put it back like it was, no way. It's too much, but we're going to try to get something for this to, you know? Similar, yeah, to recognize that 'cause [inaudible]. Hopefully it'll happen sometime soon.
Debbie Prince
But yeah, the city, they asked for people to meet down there with ideas. So everybody just did some brainstorming on things they could do so.
Michael Hughes
Maybe hopefully bringing out a survey. About that About the Michael Smith park. See what. I do know that. Something happened 'cause she called me not.
Debbie Prince
I don't know if they just forgot about it, OK?
Michael Hughes
Well, they they've just actually, this is a survey about, swimming pools, what do they call it, creating another pool around the city and then they’re supposed to bring out the survey with, like when I get in my hand, I’m gonna take it to the church.
Debbie Prince
OK.
Debbie Prince
That’d be wonderful.
Michael Hughes
About Michael Smith Park and what they would like to see.
Debbie Prince
And Michael Smith, he owned the African American, the Funeral Home. It still exists. And they have one in Lexington too, but they they named the park after him. What else?
Jeffrey Shenton
So, we've been going for about an hour. Is there any subject we haven't talked about that you would like to get on the record that you'd like to talk about about your growing up here in Danville or anything else that you think is important for this interview?
Debbie Prince
No, I think we just about covered everything. The church and school Bate, especially Batewood Homes. That's about it, yeah. And just the relationships we have with our teachers at Bate. That was very important in coming up here. But thank you all for having me.
Sam Merritt
Thank you so much for your willingness!
Debbie Prince
You're welcome, you're welcome, I hope I gave you what you wanted.