Melvin Harris

"The only thing that’s going to change things in this world is time and love."

Transcript

JS: Ok my name is Jeff Shenton and I'm the instructor for Anthropology 389: Lived Histories at Centre College. I’ll be responsible for recording this interview. This is an interview of Mr. Melvin Harris. The date today is January 24th, 2021. This interview is being conducted by telephone and recorded over a Zoom call. The interview is scheduled to last approximately one hour. The interview will consist of an oral history that covers Mr. Harris’ life and career focusing on the experiences that he’s had in Danville and Boyle County, and especially on the urban renewal period in Danville and its effects on the local community. Now I’d like each of the interviewers to introduce themselves. I’d like them to give their name, age, their year at Centre, and where each of you are from.

SS: I can start. Hello my name is Sherice Sutherland, I am eighteen years old, I’m currently a Freshman at Centre, and I am from a small little parish known as Portland in Jamaica.

MH: Hello

SU: Hi my name is Stella Ullman. I am 19 years old, I am a Freshman at Centre, and I am from Lexington, Kentucky.

CC: Hi my name is Chase Cavanaugh. I’m 22 years old, I’m a senior at Centre, and I’m from Louisville, Kentucky.

JS: And finally I’d like Mr. Harris to introduce himself. Can you give your name, your current age, and where you reside. 

MH: My name is Melvin Harris. I’m living in Danville, Kentucky at 845 Duncan Hill Road, Danville, Kentucky. I’ve been living here all my life. I’ll be seventy two. 

JS: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Now we can go ahead and begin the interview.

MH: Okay.

SS: Hello Mr. Harris how are you doing today?

MH: I’m doing just wonderful, thank you.

SS: Well I'm happy to be a part of this today. Before we can kick things off, by asking you about your early life in Danville, like what’s it been like growing up here in Danville, Kentucky. Tell us about it.

MH: It’s been so-so. It's been a good life, seen a lot of changes.

SS: So on that, what was your family like growing up here? Like what was it like with your family members? How many siblings? Stuff like that. Let us know.

MH: I'm an only child.

SS: You're an only child? Wow. How was that, growing up around here being an only child?

MH: Well I had a lot of friends outside the house.

SS: What are some things your friends did? In the community.

MH: Repeat?

SS: What are some things you and your friends did in the community?

MH: Did you say what are they or what’re some of the things we did?

SS: What’re some of the things you guys did in the community? You and your friends.

MH: Oh, visit-- we did a lot of visitations in our neighborhood. You ain't gotta go so far at a young age. Everybody’s house that you visit, they were your parents. They treat you like you was one of theirs. So, that took care of a lot of things.

SS: That’s good to know. And how do you think the community has changed over time? Considering you said like back then everyone was so close knit, like has anything changed? In that sense?

MH: My community is no longer there.

SS: Ooo, that’s interesting what happened?

MH: Urban renewal got it!

SS: Urban renewal got it. What was you reaction growing up, like as a young person in Danville. What was your reaction when urban renewal occurred and took away your neighborhood, your community?

MH: Well I was, I was older. I was uh, coming back from College. When I find out-- I was in College when I found out they had come through. But growing up it was, like everybody took care of everybody. Uh, didn't have much but you didn’t need much. ‘Cause what you didn’t have the neighbors had.

SS: Yeah, that’s really interesting. So, just to pivot back, like how was your experience in school? Like what school did you attend in Danville?

MH: I went to, uh, Bate High School. It’s called Danville Bate Middle School now. Uh, they tore down our school. Our school was replaced.

SS: Wow. How-- So after you attended Bate School what did you do after that? After everything, your school being torn down, stuff like that?

MH: Well I had to go to Danville High School because Danville High School’s right down there on your property. Danville High School was down there where the Norton Center and the water fountain is. That was the old Danville High School, and they wanted to build a new school here in Danville for Danville students. But the agreement was, everybody had to have a right to go there

SS: What was your experience like at the school that you went to?

MH: At Bate School?

SS: Yeah, what was it like?

MH: It was wonderful, it was great. If you needed help, you could always find help. Teachers were great, they took an interest in you, was concerned about your outcome, your where-a-bouts. They was concerned about life in general, what you was going to be, how you was going to take care of yourself, how you was going to take care of your family; they instilled a lot of things in us.

SS: I love that. Did there—like, how they were with you guys, did that influence your aspirations as a young person as you attended Bate School?

MH: Yes.

SS: What were your aspirations as a young person at that time?

MH: It was either— let's see, it had to be my Sophomore year, that was a— I had, I didn’t plan to go to College. I didn't know exactly what I was going to do, I knew what I liked to do, I liked to fool with hair when I was a young kid. But, I remember at Danville Bate, at Bate school, there were some people came here from Western Kentucky Vocational College and they introduced themselves and talked about all of the possibilities of owning your business, job applicants, learning a trade. And that set right into my category because I just figured I wouldn't put my mom through the strain of trying to send me to College. So, I figured a one or two year course, I could get through that and then hopefully I could finish up and do the rest myself.

SS: That’s pretty interesting. So what jobs did you have and how did you get them?

MH: I went to school to be a barber.

SS: Any follow up questions based on anything that he just talked about you want to ask?

SU: Can you talk about what happened when you got out of school Mr. Harris?

MH: When I got out of high school or got out of College?

SU: When you got out of College, sir.

MH: When I got out of College I came back to Danville to work on my apprenticeship for my master’s degree. For my master’s barber license.

SU: How did you form the connections for that apprenticeship, what was that like?

MH: I was a — strange thing you asked that, there was. . .I had no idea where I was going to work. The vocational College was in Paducah, Kentucky and in my school it was 27 of us decided to go take a trade and we all went to the same place. They had dormitories and everything and classrooms and everything; they had everything that we needed. Near the end of my classwork, I had no idea where I was going to do my apprenticeship. I knew it wasn't going to be in Paducah, Kentucky because I hated that place. But anyway, there was a gentleman that worked at City Barbershop here in Danville that was looking for a barber and he came down to my school and asked the instructors down there— asked the administrators that he was looking for a barber and they got to talking and he found out that I was there. And they told him “it’s a kid here, in this College that’s from your city.” So, I got a chance to talk to him and he asked me, would I come to work at his shop when I got out. And I told him “I would be glad to.” Therefore, I did not have to leave town, I didn't have to go hunting for anything and it sort of took a little pressure off me about where I was going to go when I got out of school. So when I got out of school, I knew where I was going to go to work.

SU: And what was it like working there?

MH: It was different. It was very different than the culture I grew up in.

SU: In what ways was it different?

MH: I worked in a barbershop where they worked only the white trade.

SS: Mr. Harris, on that note of the barbershops, can you tell us a little about the barbershop sit-ins of the 1970's with Centre College?

MH: Sure I can tell you where it is! You know where the courthouse is in Danville on Main Street?

SS: Yes.

MH: You know the church across the street from it? Got a red door in front of it. 

SS: Yes.

MH: Right beside that. The church ended up with the property that I worked in, but right beside that church, there’s a barbershop— there used to be a barbershop there that I started working in, in 1967, called Richardson’s Barbershop. Well it’s called— probably in the directory it might have been City Barbershop. But it was owned by a man named Richardson.

SS: Can you give us some details on the sit-in that happened with Centre College in the 1970’s, a little bit? Some more details on that. Like, what was it like?

MH: What do you mean what happened at Centre?

SS: The barbershop sit-ins that took place in the 1970’s.

MH: Ok. I assume you’re talking about the protest?

SS: Yes.

MH: Yes, sure I can. Centre College students came and protested in front of all the businesses in town that did not allow Blacks to visit— did not serve Blacks in their facilities. And our shop was one of them, shop on Third Street was one of them. Any shop that only was— was for whites only as far as barbershops, beauty shops, restaurants. If you stop and think, there were very few restaurants that me as a Black guy could go in and sit down and have a meal.  And we’re talking about late 60’s and early 70’s. Centre College petitioned— I know they petitioned our shop, they petitioned the drug stores up and down Main Street between Fourth and Third Street. They petitioned the barbershops on Third Street and anyone else that did not have equal rights for everybody. Centre College protested all of them with ticket signs and student walk-ins. And I thought that was kind of— I thought that was kind of different because I remember when I was growing up, only Black people I ever seen at Centre College was Africans. I never saw nobody that spoke any other language that I could relate to because they didn’t speak their language over here. They could speak English but I never knew anybody that grew up in the United States that was Black that went to Centre College back then. But they had African students over there.

SU: Could you talk about what happened after those protests? Did you notice the change?

MH: Sure, I can tell you about it. The block that I worked in, there was one, two, three— there was three restaurants across the street on the side I worked and a restaurant down the street. When the change took place, when me, as a Black man, a Black guy was allowed to go in and sit down and have a lunch. And I thought that was ironic that I couldn't because I worked right there with them. But anyway, every one of those restaurants took out their general activities— their lunch activities, they just removed them. I guess that if they couldn't serve only whites only they wouldn't serve anybody. [long pause] But that was — as far as living here, that wasn’t something I wasn’t used to, that was the norm. A lot of places me, as a Black guy, couldn't go to the front door and sit down on the inside, but I could always go to the back door and get anything I wanted out of the kitchen; just ordered from the back. That was just life. You just had to live with it.

[background noise]

CC: So, like you said, it was very normal for you living that kind of life it didn't really change much for you. But, do you think that, with Second Street District being such a prevalent place for Black business at the time, do you think that changed things more so than the sit-ins when urban renewal came and kind of uprooted those businesses?

MH: I thought the urban renewal change was to get the Black section out of town, personally—that’s my personal opinion. Because if you would look at the history of it and look at the geographic area of it, all of it right there, that’s Main Street, you turn the corner and you’re in the Black business or Black section of town— where all the Black businesses were. There weren't a lot of people who—There weren't a lot of white folks that walked up and down through that street.

CC: So when that change happened, how did that affect you personally? How did that affect people that you knew? You know neighbors, where did you all go from there?

MH: I don’t know exactly where people went to from there after they got rid of all those businesses. I guess most of them went to where they was comfortable going, but just because of change — laws change things doesn't always make things comfortable where you go. People will serve you even though they don’t want to serve you. And some of them— it’s just a change that has to take— it takes time. Because I always felt like, here’s a place that didn’t want me in the first place, you know, and now they have got laws that almost makes them or close down. And it’s like, ok. I look at it as if I know you’re here and I got to serve you but that don’t mean I like it. That’s my opinion.  But probably — after things got going it’s different. But I can tell you exactly what happened to the business at the shop that I worked in. When the change took place, it just ‘bout put us out of business. Because all the white folks that used to come to our shop, did not come because Blacks would come to our shop to get their haircut because we were like them. And they thought it would be ok with us, it was ok with me. But what they did it ran probably 80 percent, maybe 90 percent of all the white clientele that the barbershop had, run them out of business.

CC: So how much longer did you stay and cut hair at that business, um, after the sit-ins and change? 

MH: I cut hair there for about twelve years. From ‘67 ‘til— I think I left in ‘77—‘77 or ‘78. The business had gone down. You just couldn't make the money that you were used to making. Because the Blacks would come— they would come because they could but it wasn't their preference to come regularly. They didn't make it their regular place of business because they already had their own barbers; they already had their own barber that they liked. They would come to— I guess to say because they could, I don’t know. I guess they wanted to see if we would cut their hair or if it would be ok.

SU: Mr. Harris, could you talk about where you went after you left?

MH: Where I went after I left? I ended up doing factory work off and on.

CC: Did you do factory work because that’s what you wanted to do after you left or because maybe there weren't as many opportunities for Black workers at that time? Do you believe there were opportunities for Black workers at that time?

MH: I went to factory work because of financial reasons. Mainly— but when you start a family, and you got two or three kids come along you have to— you need to get into something where you can either make enough money to pay your insurance for your family and provide everything that they need or you need to get somewhere where they will pay your insurance for you or have it at a low cost that was affordable. And insurance at a factory was a lot lower than what I could buy straight out, for four people. And still make enough to make a living at that time, for me anyway.

[long pause]

CC: Ok, going back to the topic of urban renewal, who do you feel should be held responsible for the actions of urban renewal?

MH: Say it again? 

CC: Back to— going back to urban renewal and how it affected the Black community in Danville, who do you feel is responsible for urban renewal as a whole?

MH: I thought it either had something to do with city government or the city of Danville because urban renewal is like its own individual entity. Like, this is what we gonna do and it’s what gonna take place. You had no choice, they came through and they would offer you a price for your property. Take it or leave it— they almost tell you take it or leave it but we gonna take it anyway. So you either take it for what we offer you or go to court. And you may not get what we offer you in court. So most people just— I don’t remember anybody ever putting up a struggle or a fight to keep their property. I think everybody just went with it. I could be wrong on that though.

SS: Why do you think they —

MH: But some of the neighborhoods I thought were— was needed, it came out and built homes and you had a chance to buy new homes, a nice looking home and everything. And in fact, the property you all sitting down in come out of urban renewal. Let me see, on the lower side of Main Street. If you notice there’s no Seventh Street down there. Urban renewal went through there and took all of that. And who ended up with it? You all did. 

SS: On that note, can you tell us a little about Centre College’s involvement in urban renewal?

MH: Do what now?

SS: Can you tell us a little about Centre College’s involvement with urban renewal?

MH: I didn't say they was involved with it. I said they ended up with the property. So I guess once urban renewal takes the property, whoever wants to buy it, has a right to buy it, once urban renewal gets their hands on it. Sometimes I just question the reason why urban renewal takes things. Some neighborhoods they went through and offered you a new home, to tear down your old shack and put a new home in it. Make it all nice, neighborhood. A lot of it was upgrade for everybody. For the city and the families that took their proposition. But I still think Seventh Street could— I still think second street could've been done differently. But they left no businesses in there. And that’s not the only area that urban renewal went through and no businesses, no occupants got back to that property.

CC: So what was the process like trying to buy that property back? I know you said that they would come in and buy it and say that you can buy it back. How difficult was it?

MH: I can’t really tell you the details on that because all that happened right as I was going off to college. But I know— I do know that a couple of areas, in the city, ended up all businesses, no residential— no residents lived in that area. All businesses ended up with it, that was residential at the start. So I don’t know what it was zoned as back then, but it is all businesses now.

SU: So Mr. Harris, could you talk about how you feel about Danville now? What do you think Danville is like?

MH: Oh, I’ll put it this way, every generation pays the price for the next generation coming behind us. My mom, what she went through is nothing like what I went through, it has gotten better. And I’ll say the generation after me has gotten better than what I come through. There’s always we still gonna be some problems.  The thing about it now, you don’t really know who’s for you and who’s not. They can say you one thing and do another thing. So, it’s almost like knowing who likes you and who don’t like you. Who wants you around and who don’t want you around. When it was a lot of prejudice concerns, you knew who didn’t want you around. So you don't know if things are for real or not. If people are for real or not. You just hope they are and pray that they are. Or trust in God that they are. But if it was or if it is, why, people are still being mistreated.

CC: Do you still see the effects of urban renewal today? Do you think the Black community has kind of helped themselves back up to a certain point, or do you think it will never be the way it was before?

MH: Oh I’m glad it’s not the way it was because when urban renewal— the ones that got the rebuilding—the ones that got a new home, for a great price and a great interest rate back then it really helped them, it helped everybody. But it was just— ideally, if you was gonna be able to keep your voice or not. If you wanted to stay where you were, some could and some could not.

[long pause]

CC: Are there any businesses or places you used to hang out that aren't there anymore that you miss going to?

MH: No. [pause] No, I take that back. Going back to the old barbershop where I used to go to— this is more of a— you learn a lot. People talked about people that you knew, that you grew up with, that— talk about things of the past and what they went through. And you have to understand that at my age, there’s not many people around that’s my age. But I do know one thing that, people who are still my age, white or Black in the city, remember and know just as much as I know and more. I would. . . I wonder how they feel about— how do the white people my age now feel about me being in their presence or me sitting down at the same dinner table. Maybe it’s no problem, been going on for so long that— sometimes when you start doing business you run into people. Sometimes I wonder about— especially my age.

CC: So—

MH: Not many people in business that’s my age though. I talked to several people that’s getting ready to retire so they are not very far from my age. I know they’re going to tell me all nonsense, I just have to remember, you come out of my area so I know who you are.

SU: Mr. Harris, do you wish that the city would acknowledge what happened during urban renewal?

MH: Do I wish what?

SU: That the city of Danville would acknowledge what happened during urban renewal?

MH: Do I think— do I think they would acknowledge it?

SU: Yeah or do you wish that they could?

MH: Oh. Well they would probably look at it as a great improvement in the city. And I wouldn't say they are wrong on that, but I would like to know about the businesses. If they had a right to keep their business or not, I don’t know that, I don’t know that. Like I said, that all happened when I was gone away to school. Maybe the Black business didn’t choose to sell or stay in business. Maybe the guideline requirements were too great for them, I don’t know. 

CC: Do you believe if those same Black businesses were still open today they would thrive like they did back then?

MH: You know, it’s strange you asked that question and you sound like me. But anyway, sometimes I wonder. We are a funny generation of people, cultural people. Depending on where you live, where you grow up. But around here, I’m not sure. I don’t know, I’m not sure. Who would trade with who if there was two businesses and one across the street from each other. One was owned by a Black businessman and the other was owned by a white businessman. You tell me what would keep the Black businessman’s business in operation? If we don't patronize him, then he may go out of business. And my thing is, how many of us patronize each other period.

[long pause]

CC: So after urban renewal happened, did Black people just leave the city, or did they kind of just scattered around the city trying to find somewhere to fit in where they could? 

MH: Most of them I know kind of scattered around. They just went in different areas. Like where I lived and grew up, when urban renewal come through there, you didn’t have a choice. And they didn’t offer us a new home or a rebuild on our place, they just told us we had to move. And why I know that is we had a brand new house. My parents had built a brand new house in ’63 and this all happened in ’60 what? Seven? ’66/’67. It happened after I left here and went to school, but on that same area, If you —I know you are familiar with UPS. If you would start at UPS and travel east and go all the way to the top to the top of the hill, which is Cowan Street at the top of the hill, the next road to your right— the next street to your right, all that was Black homes up through there. And all of that is all business now. So I don't know if they just eliminated that area and just made it a business section only or not. But they took my mom’s home and when I come back from school, mom and ’em had a house that I never— that I didn’t grow up in, I didn't know anything about it. They had to move while I was gone. So it was a new home they had and when I found out about the house that me and my grandfather worked so hard to finish, urban renewal had taken it. And they sold it to somebody else and they picked it up and moved it out in the county somewhere. And then the property where my grandmother and ’em lived at— you might want to jot this down it was over in an area off Meadows Lane called Meadows lane, that's off of Cowan Street in Danville. That’s in the same area that I’m talking about now off Lebanon Road. There was one, two, three, four, five, six, seven— about eight families living on that lane. No Black family ended up with that property down there, not one. I don’t know if they chose not to or if urban renewal didn’t offer them to build them a new house down in that area or not. But nobody that I— in my neighborhood, that I grew up with or that was there when I was coming up owned any property in that area now, it’s owned by one white guy. One white guy owns all of it. So how he got his hands on it? It had to go through urban renewal. So was he in cahoots with urban renewal? I don’t know. Urban renewal just come, purchased it and my thing is, why? It’s not a business district, but they didn't offer to put any homes back in there. But maybe they offered it to sell for the people that lived there and everybody chose not to.

CC: So, you’re talking about West Danville, right?

MH: Correct.

CC: Yeah, so that’s where you grew up?

MH: Mhm. Correct. That’s where I grew up. West Danville.

CC: Yep. So, what was it like being there before it was torn down?

MH: What was it like being born in West Danville?

CC: Yep.

MH: Oh, it was great. Everybody knew everybody, everybody took care of everybody. Everybody was like one, big community.

CC: So, when you came back from college and you saw that that big community had kind of been torn down, and, you know, you had stated that nobody really fought back because there was no reason to fight back. It wasn’t going to work out. How did that feel for you? It had to have been frustrating.

MH: Well, it bothered me simply because they took our house, and my mom and dad had bought a house sort of out, out of Danville a little bit. But it was still in Boyle County but it was out, but it was- you know, and my thing is… Why didn’t they, you know, and I really never thought to ask, why didn’t they buy some of the property where my grandmother lived and build a house there? Maybe because she didn’t want to, I don’t know. But they ended up buying the place sort of out of Danville. Just a little bit. And like you said, that happened while I was gone and as long as she was satisfied, I was tickled to death. She seemed to be happy with it. Don’t know.

SU: *inaudible*

MH: Didn’t hear you.

SU: Do you think it was hard for your family to have to leave Danville, leave that community?

MH: I don’t think it was, simply because all our neighbors that joined boundary lines together had gone anyway, had to leave anyway. But it’s- we ended up in an area where we didn’t know anybody. You had to meet all new neighbors so I guess it was sort of disturbing when you knew everybody around you personally, and you know about their personal business and everything and kind of looked out for each other because a lot of older people were there. And to move in a neighborhood where nobody knew you. So, I don’t know. I never had to adjust to living there, I never lived there.

CC: Where did you end up living when you came back from college?

MH: I came back from college and I ended up living on 2nd Street.

CC: And this was 2nd Street post-urban renewal? After everything had happened?

MH: Yes.

CC: What was that like? I know before it was a pretty nice business district for Black people and you come back, and it’s just a completely different area. What was it like living there after everything had happened?

MH: Well, I lived in the more, like, residential area on 2nd Street vs. the business section on the other side of KSD. You talking about the business section was up toward Main. When you start over here, you have to get past Kentucky School for the Deaf, all that was residential area down through there.

CC: And was that still Black homes through there?

MH: Yes.

[long pause]

CC: Do you- so, what was the 2nd Street, what was the residential area like as a community? Was it still pretty intact even after urban renewal happened?

MH: It was okay, it was okay. They had started remodeling, building new homes, and upgrading. It was a nice neighborhood.

CC: Did you feel you still had that neighborly connection you had growing up in West Danville?

MH: No. I’ll never have that neighborhood connection. That was more like family, in any direction I wanted to go run and play. From two blocks away from home to even the door property right behind us. I could go anywhere and feel like I was right at home.

CC: What made West Danville feel more like home, like a place where you could be anywhere and be fine, than being on 2nd Street?

MH: West Danville still feels like that, but here’s the thing about West Danville. West Danville doesn’t have- there are a few families still there that I grew up with. A lot of people have moved in, and I don’t know. It’s a little bit different. And when I speak of West Danville, I am speaking of the area that I would say east of Carroll Street.

CC: I definitely know what you mean. I grew up in a neighborhood in Louisville that I go back, and I don’t really recognize it anymore. A lot of people have moved out. So, do you think that’s something that comes with childhood and adolescence, just feeling like you’re more connected with the community, or do you believe that, like, even if you had spent your whole adulthood in West Danville, in that area, do you think you’d still have that connection with families that are still there?

MH: It’s almost like as a childhood, you grow up in that neighborhood, you kind of felt safe, regardless of where you went to. You remember this thing you used to talk about, neighborhood watch? I tell people all the time, I don’t know what you talking about. I had neighborhood watch when I was 4-5 years old, 6 years old. Everybody in my neighborhood took care of everybody’s child. You went somewhere and got in trouble, they’d help you out, they’d straighten you out. You went to somebody’s house and got out of line, they’d straighten you out, but they loved you to death and you felt that love. It just seemed like everybody just watched out for each other then, more so then now. Now, it seems like people get offended or get upset, like you’re meddling in they business. Back then, it wasn’t about meddling with nobody! It was about taking care of one another.

CC: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. You feel a lot safer as a child in the neighborhood. So, um, now that you’re older and, you know, you still live in Danville, you’ve grown up your whole life here. Is there anything you would change about the way that urban renewal happened? You said that, you know, in some ways it made it better, but do you think there’s something about it that could’ve happened differently?

MH: I don’t know about all that, I just, you know- how many people you feel today, you can take them as they word? Back then, when I grew up, everybody knew your word was your bond.  I mean, what a man said, that’s what it meant, and that’s what everybody went by. They knew you by what you said, and what you meant. I’m not so sure today. We got contracts that don’t even hold up now, and word of mouth and what a person said he would do back then, when I was a kid, was like an everlasting contract. Without anything being wrote down, but you have a contract today, somebody wants to break it tomorrow. So, my thing is I guess I’m just old school. You tell me, give me your word about something, I just take it as I would take it when I was growing up. That’s what you meant and you said. That’s all I need. You said. If you didn’t mean it, don’t say it. If I don’t mean it, I don’t say it. Just be real. Why can’t we all just sit down and be real with one another? If you like me, you like me. If you don’t, you don’t. Just don’t pretend. I hate pretenders. I’d rather be riding with a guy in a car that I know likes me than one that pretends he likes me and I don’t know it. But I’ve come up in the era where- *sighs*. You could only live certain places, only buy certain homes. Now, you can buy a home anywhere. But because you can buy a home anywhere don’t mean your neighbor next door likes you because I’ve seen too many Blacks buy homes in certain areas and all the Whites put their houses up for sale. You tell me what that’s all about. You tell me that has changed back past the 60’s? I don’t think so.

[pause]

Just like, I know a mixed couple that when they want to go buy something, he sends his wife in there because she’s white, to bargain for the deal, whatever they bargain for, because they can get it at a different interest rate. Then, he walks in, and everybody got a surprise on their face. You tell me, what’s that all about? You mean, I can get a better deal if I’m married with somebody that’s different than I am, that’s lighter than me? Why is that so? Why is it so? And then, you take me for instance as far as property owners are concerned. When I put a house up for sale, if it’s tied in with one house, or two houses, or ten houses, if I put it up for sale so I can sell it and lower the mortgage rate on everything else I own, why do I have to go to the bank and they tell me I can’t sell it? What’s up with that? Why can’t I sell it when I’m trying to decrease or eliminate the loan that I already have? And then, when I go to the general manager of this establishment, I asked him the same question. He said, ‘who told you that?’ I said, ‘Your counter partner so you tell me.’ He said, ‘Why did he tell you that?’ I told him, ‘I was so angry, so angry when I come out of his office’ because it didn’t matter if I was going to sell it 5,000 over what I got for it or 50,000 over what I paid for it. I wanted to eliminate this debt that I had at this establishment, and he’s going to tell me that he can’t sign the release papers on it? So, I told the man that was over him a year later, almost a year later, and he asked me why. So, I went back and asked him. You know what he told me? He said he didn’t know what I was going to do with the money. Now, you tell me, who’s in control. They large and in charge. I’m trying to pay a debt off and you want to know what I- you won’t sign the release on the home because you don’t know what I’m going to do with the money. What the hell you think I’m going to do with it? I’m trying to get out of debt. But, he wouldn’t sign it. That’s almost worse than urban renewal, ain’t it? Got control if you can sell something or not, and then won’t sign the release for you to sell it. Because I say so.

CC: Yeah, for sure. What do you think the community; the Danville community in general, can do to better things? What do you think Centre can do to better things and, kind of, make up for their role in how things played out?

MH: The only thing that’s going to change things in this world is time and love. If we can’t love each other, we live with each other. If we don’t learn how to love, and forget about the difference in who I am and who you are and who they are- when the color of the skin doesn’t make a difference, then we’ll be just fine, but it’s never going to change. I don’t think so. Not, not- I won’t see it change. You might see it change, and I hope and pray you see it change.

JS: Mr. Harris, we’re comin’ up on an hour now in this call. I just wanted to check in with you and see if there’s anything else you wanted to talk about, in terms of your, your experience or anything you wanted to get on the record before we ended this call?

MH: No. If it is, I- no, I don’t think so. I don’t think it is. It’s just, I have to take it one day at a time, and as a business owner and operating here in the city of Danville, I’m just grateful and thankful for people that patronize my business. And, um, I have to look at them through God’s eyes. A guy that I work with told me a statement one day, he made a statement to me one day. He said, ‘Everybody that walks through this front door, remember God sent them.’ He said, ‘Nothing you did to draw them here. It’s that God sent him.’ He said, ‘Our job is to love them as Jesus would, regardless of race, creed, or color.’ So, I just try to love everybody. Treat everybody like I want to be treated, but, sometimes, it gets hard when you've been mistreated, been lacking, been held back. And then, nowadays, you come up on a time when folks are trying to tell you things are alright, and you run into a situation that’s not alright. But, there’s been a big change. My mom’s 89. There’s been a big change from the time she grew up and the time I grew up because it’s a change now between the time I grew up and my kids’ generation. They 50. Each generation has a price to pay, and we all paying our price to make it better for the next generation. The point, is the next generation going to get your generation or is everybody going to catch up? You tell me that. When’s everybody going to be the same? When are we going to stop seeing color and look at character?

JS: Well, I want to thank you for your time, Mr. Harris. It has been really wonderful to talk to you and I think all the student interviewers had a wonderful experience talking with you as well. So, I want to thank you on behalf of the class. I don’t know if you three want to say anything before we get off the call.

SU: Thank you so much.

CC: Yeah, absolutely.

SS: Thank you for talking with us.

MH: If any of you guys want to see a picture of the barbershop on Main Street that I started out in, stop by Danville Manor Barbershop beside Jimmy John’s and I’ll show you the picture. I still got a picture of the old shop. But you probably could pull it up on the internet.

JS: That sounds great. Thank you so much for that offer. We will try to come by and collect all the pieces we can. Thanks so much. I’m going to stop the recording now.

End of Recording