Charles Grey & James Hunn
Charles Grey and James Hunn
Parts of this transcript were autogenerated and there may be errors.
00:00:03 Simonne Petersen
My name is Simonne Petersen and today I am interviewing Charles Grey and James Hunn who lived in Danville during the urban renewal project. I'm here with Sam Merritt, Cindy Zamarripa and James Schroeder, as well as Jeffrey Shenton and today's date is January 12th, 2023, and we are recording this interview in the Danville African American Association. Today we'll be discussing the urban renewal project.
00:00:34 Sam Merritt
So I wanted to start with talking about your families specifically, you Charles, specifically you, Charles, and their involvement in the Masonic Lodge, the Doric Lodge, that once stood on 2nd street.
00:00:48 Charles Grey
OK, I'd like to make a statement first. First, want to thank the Centre College Group for being interested in the African American history preserved project. I always want Michael Hughes and the Danville Boyle County African American Society for the concentration to the preservation of the African American experience here in Boyle County. I don't want to take this for granted, and I'm glad you all are here to hear it. Because you know this isn't just talking, we’re trying to accomplish something. We're trying to accomplish something, so go ahead, I'm sorry.
00:01:33 Sam Merritt
Well, thank you for being here. It's it really means a lot that you make the effort to be here. And my first question was about your family and their particular involvement in the Doric Lodge.
00:01:42 Charles Grey OK. My mother was a member. And my stepfather was a member and they were very active. And my father was not interested.
00:01:59 Sam Merritt
- And I've read about Masonic lodges in general that only men are permitted in them. And you referenced that your mom was involved. How was that in Doric Lodge were women allowed to participate?
00:02:15 Charles Grey
She wasn't allowed to participate with the men, and they had a women's group women's group. They were Celestine #9. Is that right?
00:02:26 James Hunn
Yeah, order of the Eastern Star.
00:02:27 Charles Grey
Order of the Eastern Star.
00:02:30 Sam Merritt
And they would hold meetings in the same space, just on different days.
00:02:35 Charles Grey
We never mixed in meetings, social gatherings, yes, but not meetings.
00:02:44 Sam Merritt
And I suppose you weren't there for the meetings with all women, but was the subject the same, would y’all discuss the same
00:02:51 Charles Grey
Well, there was a man always a man present with the women.
00:02:55 James Hunn
Yeah, a “patron”. It was a man that was the patron.
00:02:59 Charles Grey
The patron, yes. And yes, I have been in their meetings.
00:03:03 Sam Merritt
OK.
00:03:05 Charles Grey
You have to, right?
00:03:07 James Hunn
Yeah, I was a patron for a number of years, yes.
00:03:12 Sam Merritt
So would they discuss the same kind of things?
00:03:13 James Hunn
No
00:03:16 Sam Merritt
What was different about it?
00:03:19 Charles Grey
Different between women and men, yeah.
00:03:22 James Hunn
It was set up different.
00:03:26 James Hunn
Men took care of their own business and with their...
But that not the Charter, but what's their you would say, what's their?
00:03:34 Charles Grey
Mission.
00:03:38 James Hunn
Mission, Mission was the same way with the women, the women had they own mission, but that was based on the same thing. Both of them are based on the Holy Bible.
00:03:50 Sam Merritt
Mhm mhm.
00:03:53 James Hunn
It's three steps for Mason and three steps for the Eastern Star, and each one of them steps is based on the Bible.
00:04:01 Sam Merritt
OK yeah, and I've heard of some of the three degrees or three steps labeled as entered Apprentice, Fellow of the Craft and Master Mason. Does that sound familiar?
00:04:13 Charles Grey
Right.
00:04:13 James Hunn
Yeah that’s right.
00:04:13 Sam Merritt
Yes, OK, where did you both fit into that?
00:04:18 Charles Grey
We had to go through all three of them. In order to be a Master, in order to be a Master Mason, you had to be an Apprentice, Fellow of the Craft and then you got into the Master Mason
00:04:35 James Hunn
And you have to, in order to join, you have to ask one to be one. And that’s for both. And then you then you’re initiated into an Apprentice, go from an Apprentice to the Master Mason. And then to and interpreting this Fellow of the Craft and master Mason and they and it's 30 days. It has to be 30 days between each degree.
00:05:06 Sam Merritt
And is that a typical timeline, or would people spend more time on, OK?
00:05:12 Charles Grey
That’s the time that was set.
00:05:12 Sam Merritt
Ok, so...
00:05:13 James Hunn
and you have to be, you have to study, you have to know
00:05:22 Charles Grey
What you're supposed to about that degree
00:05:23 James Hunn
Know what you're supposed to know and it's and it's transpired between from mouth to ear.
00:05:31 Sam Merritt
- And I understand that you can't reveal all of the details of some of these.
00:05:38 Charles Grey
Just ask and we will tell you.
00:05:38 Sam Merritt
Things OK, yes. Sounds good, sounds good, but go ahead, go ahead.
00:05:45 Cindy Zamarripa
So what were the activities you guys would do in like each like stage of the fellowship or the the?
The fellowship, like, was there anything?
00:05:53 James Hunn
We won't, we won't discuss that.
00:05:57 Cindy Zamarripa
OK.
00:05:59 Simonne Peterson
How did you feel being a part of this organization?
00:06:03 Charles Grey
Good, very good.
00:06:04 James Hunn
Yeah, it's designed to be more community wise than for us you know it's and the main goal is to have an offering. That’s one of the main things. And we always appeared in public when we were all dressed up. Like usually on every fifth Sunday we would go to somebody’s church and we make a contribute, donations.
00:06:39 Charles Grey
That I felt I felt good about it because I was a part of something worthwhile.
00:06:46 James Hunn
Yeah.
00:06:48 Charles Grey
It was a good organization. It's a worldwide organization. If you had a brother in Danville, you might have a brother in Africa. If you had your ring on. He's your brother and you're going to recognize each other. I got some illustrations here, but I'll just show you this one hereI got my 33rd degree and only reason why I'm saying is there were people from all over the United States at this session.
00:07:22 James Hunn
And Europe.
00:07:24 Charles Grey
And Europe. Yeah, when I got that. So it it links you up to other people everywhere.
00:07:35 James Hunn
And when we went to these sessions. Everybody that belong along to the Prince Hall Mason or the Southern jurisdiction they were there. The Prince Hall Masonry is divided into into the northern Northern jurisdiction and the Southern jurisdiction.
00:07:55 Sam Merritt
And the north and the south would never collaborate like?
00:08:00 James Hunn
Not really.
00:08:01 Sam Merritt Ok
00:08:02 James Hunn
But you can, you can switch them. They're like a lot of military overseas. They mostly belong to the northern jurisdiction. But then when they come to the States and they go to the southern States and then and then in the southern jurisdiction, they can, they can switch over.
00:08:20 Charles Grey
And the reason why we're both here.
Because he came in after I did. And he was there at the end when I had got out. So we both basically know the same things, but he knows a little more about the latter part of it, but we just, feel free to ask anything you want because we want you all to know about us. And the one real positive thing about being a Mason, especially for African Americans you have contacts outside of your rim outside of your town. And we would go everywhere and feel welcome.
00:09:19 James Hunn
And in the beginning African Americans they had to go, then Kentucky, they had to go to Indiana, before back in the. Oh, I want to get the century right. 7.. 18th I guess.
00:09:35 Charles Grey
Are you talking about the beginning?
00:09:37 James Hunn
In the beginning, in the beginning They had to go to Indiana. They couldn't do one and then when they was organized they had to go to Ohio to be organized into the Ohio jurisdiction. They were, they called them jurisdictions. Another thing about Masonry, anywhere you go, you'll meet.
And if you knew what to say and you're in trouble and need help he'll give it to you if he's able to give it to you, he will give it.
00:10:06 Charles Grey
He's obligated.
00:10:08 James Hunn
Yeah, he's obligated every day.
00:10:10 Charles Grey
And then if say for instance, if any of you were a brother's child. And we saw you needing help.
Our correction, we took it on ourselves to take care of that.
00:10:28 James Hunn
It's a good organization that we belong to, but nowadays you know, young men and women they don't want they. I don't know if they don't want to be, it's just that it's African American for African Americans It's not much more than they can do. That they couldn't do back then back during segregation, so. And it gives them a better opportunity to to do other things you know, and you know all this media stuff y'all have and. Hunn You go to this TikTok. All this other stuff you know y'all stay on their phones all the time you know it's the same with with African American children too, you know so it it takes away from a lot of stuff that would benefit them too.
00:11:19 Sam Merritt
You're talking about like organization and how it seems like the Doric Lodge came a really long way because in the beginning, as you guys said, they would have to go to Indiana or Ohio. But I've come to learn that the Doric Lodge was the state was the site of like State Grand Lodge events.
00:11:38 James Hunn
Yeah, one or two but yeah, one one or two.
0:11:39 Charles Grey
Yeah, we have, we did.
00:11:41 James Hunn
Yeah, I can't remember what the years were.
00:11:44 Charles Grey
I remember one that I was. I was about 15. And at the cab stand I was dispersing cabs. And they had the Grand Lodge. And all of these men come in in suits talking this trash, and I wanted to be a part of that.
00:12:10 James Hunn
And they... Prince Hall Masons their basic uniform is a black suit, white shirt, all black, black, black suit, black tie black shoes, white shirt.
00:12:27 Charles Grey
And what I what I really respect about the Masons. You couldn't be a Mason and act anyways. You had to carry yourself decent. And in order. Because you could leave just as fast as you came in. And we didn't, we did not allow anybody to take away from what we stood for.
00:12:52 James Hunn
And another thing, when you petition the Lodge to go in, you have to have to be in investigated.
They found out all about you {inaudible} capturing everything. And what the best place to do is finding out from the mailman.
00:13:11 Cindy Zamarripa
Does the mailman often knew more information?
00:13:14 James Hunn
They know more about what was going on you know. Because the way they went around, you know serving people. And delivered mail and everything. So mail man post offices. But one of the best places to do investigations and people in the church. You know if they was church members, you asked, church members too. And if they didn't come up to Mason criteria, you know they was. They wouldn't allow them.
00:13:50 James Schroeder
What was the Mason criteria? If you can speak on that?
00:13:54 Charles Grey
Basically, basically being a decent person.
00:13:58 James Hunn
Yeah, Masonry takes a good man and make a better man.
00:14:03 Charles Grey
You just couldn't be any kind of person. That's the criteria.
00:14:08 James Hunn
One of them I’ll speak of is drunkard. You couldn’t be a drunkard. But if you straighten up and change, you know you could. Finally, make it in. If you choose to do so.
00:14:24 Simonne Peterson
So, it seems as though an important part of this organization is to develop into a better person. What kind of value values do you think that you learned as being part of this organization?
00:14:39 Charles Grey
Loving, when I say love, I mean love other people and treat and treat the other people like you would like to be treated. And kind of demand it. You shouldn't tolerate anything less than what you would like.
James Hunn: Yeah, and regardless of creed, color-
Charles Grey: It didn’t matter, you know you respect everybody-
James Hunn: Yeah.
Charles Grey: And you expected to be respected.
James Hunn: Now, until lately, uh, say the last 5 years, the Caucasian lodge didn’t recognize SPENCER ALL MASON
Charles Grey: Yeah.
James Hunn: Now, because they’re not getting any men, like SPENCER ALL MASON not getting any, they want those bodies. I say bodies you know, people you know, it… they need the membership because if they don’t get the membership, they can’t survive.
Simonne: Could you elaborate on that a little bit more?
James Hunn: What do you mean? Elaborate how?
Simonne: Um, just like speak more as to why that is?
James Hunn: Well…
Charles Grey: Let me have at it.
James Hunn and Simonne laugh
Charles Grey: It, its, it goes a long way, with, uh, segregation.
James Hunn: Yeah.
Charles Grey: And it’s, it’s biblical, because you can read in the Bible where there’s always been separation.
James Hunn: Yeah.
Charles Grey: And, at the time when we came along, it just wasn’t allowed. And I don’t want, I don’t want it all, to talk like “it was so bad, that I’m so angry, so ticked off”, but I do want to say the way it was.
James Hunn: Yes.
Charles Grey: And the reason it was-
James Hunn: Is because of segregation.
Charles Grey: And, we just didn’t wanna accept it.
James Hunn: But now we are. Both lodges have agreed to come together, and matter of fact I have, um, attended the lodge here in Danville.
Charles Grey: See when I came along –
James Hunn: They couldn’t do it.
Charles Grey: You couldn’t do it there.
James Hunn: And I visit there, Caucasian lodge in STANFORDOWLING county too. Because there, the man that was the Master over there, him and I were good friends. We’ve been friends for 20 something years.
Sam: The other lodge that you’ve attended, is that the one on North 4th St?
James Hunn: Yeah.
Sam: OK. And, so that’s a completely separate organization from-
James Hunn: Mm, Prince on Main Street, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sam: Yeah.
Charles Grey: Same principles. James Hunn: Same principles. Charles Grey: But different races.
James Hunn: Yeah, yeah. You have to, you have to prove that you are an ACTUAL Mason, and the only way you can do it is where you DEUCE CARD. And some lodges will give you a test too, and it goes, “I will KINDLY do that’ IT GOES LIKE A FEW MINUTES. Once your made an apprentice, now apprentice pass to a fellow GRIFFIN RAISIN, master mason, you go on and cite your lodge and whatever. It’s good, you can be anywhere and meet a Mason. I was in Jamaica one time, visiting the store, and guy saw my ring, and we got to talking.
Charles Grey: I want to tell y’all a little, another little story.
Laughter
Charles Grey: My wife passed away in 2014. And so, in 2017, 18, I hooked up with my classmate. And now, we go back 60 years and start dating, OK? So she told me that her husband was a Mason. I said “that’s, that’s putting trouble on me!”.
Laugher
Charles Grey: I said cause, I like you but, I’m also obligated to take care of you, because you are a widow, and your children are orphans, and that’s my obligation. So I want y’all to know that, I said that even if you decide that you don’t want to be bothered with me anymore, I’m still obligated to take care of you. So, that went over well, I want y’all to know that.
Laughter
Charles Grey: That went over quite well.
James Hunn: I got, I was at a, we was having a, at a event, for a Mason, and had a speaker, guest speaker, speaker from Arkansas. And he’s getting up talking, and he told us kinda thing, he said “This man, he got in a little bit of trouble, he told somebody he said “you know, said, uh, I ain’t gonna get out. My lawyers a Mason, the prosecutor’s a Mason, and the judge is a Mason. Ain’t nothing that I could do about it””.
Laughter
James Hunn: And when Charles’ step father died, I would do a lot of things for his mother, I don’t know if he known about it or not
Charles Grey: I didn’t know it.
James Hunn: Yeah, I even went to the, just about every week, to the grocery store for her. Everything but cigarettes. She wouldn't-
Laughter
James Hunn: She got somebody else to get her cigarettes, she got Snooks to get her, get her cigarettes. But I would’ve got them you know if she asked me, but she never would have my own (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I don’t worry about it. I came in the house, set them on the cabinet and asked her if she wanted me to put them up you know, she had anything that needed to be refrigerated I’d put it in the refrigerator for her. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I enjoyed doing it.
James S: This uh, sense of duty, to you know, be there for one of your brothers or one of your members, was that, like, a vow you took or was that just expected of everyone in the order?
Charles Grey: It’s a good feeling.
James Hunn: It’s a good feeling that you know, you’re doing a service for somebody, you know- Charles Grey: You know, just like you all or, if any of you all are in fraternities or sororities,
James Hunn: Same thing.
Charles Grey: Or in your own classes, uh family members, you look out for each other. And you do it because you feel like doing it, you want to do it, and, it’s not an obligation, I mean it is an obligation, but you don’t have to do it. You do it because you want to.
James Hunn: And just like, you know, your class, your high school, elementary schoolmates, you’ll have contact with them for years to come.
Charles Grey: Yeah
James Hunn: I got one of my classmates, we’ve talked, we’ve talked back and forth but, it’s been about a month ago, 2 months ago, he come by my house and saw what I, well that was the first time we saw one another in a long time you know. We graduated in ‘58. And I will tell my age.
Laughter
James Hunn: It’s just a number and its UNLISTED.
Sam: I’m thinking about, like, the early days when you guys would’ve first gotten involved in the lodge, and clearly there’s like a lot of expectations for you, but, did you feel that pressure? Were you nervous to enter that space?
Charles Grey: I wasn’t nervous.
James Hunn: I was- I was kind of nervous because I didn’t know what was going to happen you know.
Charles Grey: I wasn’t nervous but, I, I think I had, felt like I had something to prove, and I wanted to go in and be as good as I could be. And, um…
James Hunn: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] learn everything that I could, so that I know what to do. Yeah, so, I did a lot of initiations all across the state, in my district, my south central district, just about every lodge in the south central district I had to do initiation.
Charles Grey: One thing that, one thing I wanted to point out today, is, the lodge is a spiritual organization.
James Hunn: Yeah.
Charles Grey: And it deals with all kinds of beliefs. You got the shriners, which is arabic- the masons is Christian. We had a nice temple of which- what I want to make a point today is- when you’re learning what you're supposed to learn, if you know an organization, learn what it’s about, so you can talk about it. That’s what we didn’t do. We used it as a social gathering. And we should’ve been learning what we was professing. And here I am now, wanting to know, because it was so valuable. If you check with other people’s cultures, you can learn a lot, along with your own, but, everybody’s different. And if you just know then you can get along. If you know why they do things and why they think like they do and why, why, why. So, this is an opportunity to do that. But we was sometimes too busy socializing. So if you ever get involved, with anything you’re supposed to learn from, it’s better to know then just to say I was apart.
James Hunn: And Mason has several different components to, you know, other houses. They call them houses. Like Master Mason, then you go to, uh, Royal Arch-
Charles Grey: Royal Arch, KNIGHTS temple
James Hunn: Mason, past masters, select masters, and the knights TEMPLERS. Knights TEMPLERS is a military, KINDA based on military style, but it’s still apart of Masonry.
Sam: What do you mean when you say it’s based on military style, do- do the men… James Hunn: They, they-
Charles Grey: They were warriors.
James Hunn: They were warriors.
Laughter
James Hunn: They, uh, I don’t know how to say…
Charles Grey: They were warriors.
James Hunn: Yeah.
Charles Grey: Just leave it at that.
James Hunn: They just… Laughter
James Hunn: And they dressed in military type, uh, uhm, military when they do their service, you know they, are encampment uh, their meetings that you could just, in a military style uniform.
Sam: And you’re talking about all these different houses, and, would there be separate meetings-
James Hunn: Yes.
Sam: per house?
James Hunn: Yes, yes.
Sam: And all of that would take place at the Doric Lodge?
James Hunn: Yes.
Sam: OK.
James Hunn: All of them but uh, DIRTS-
Charles Grey: Shriners didn’t.
James Hunn: And uh, 32nds. They didn’t.
Sam: Mhm.
James Hunn: 32nds and [UNINTELLIGIBLE…]
Charles Grey: But some towns, some towns that had all of those houses, they had it all at the same lodge hall.
James Hunn: Yeah and each, each lodge is, is set up different to, for meetings.
Simonne: Um I want to go back to what you mentioned before, you used these organizations as a social gathering instead of, uhm, talking more about what they were meant to. So, why is it that you used it as a social gathering? Like do you feel that, you know, you lacked the ability to do so in the local community?
Charles Grey: No I think I think, what what happened with me, that’s what Inherited from them. They didn’t do it, so when I really got active and I wanted to do it, and learn it, but the members, they wasn’t interested, because they had never done it. It wasn’t- it was a social gathering. But, it took some of the values, and used that, but the teaching, we didn’t- I don’t feel like we got the, the teaching of what we were supposed to be learning about.
James Hunn: I think that, it goes back I think to tradition, because when PRINCE ALL MASONS started, there was no place for them to go. Most of them couldn’t read or write, you know what I’m saying. So the ONLY way they would get any information, any news or anything, in most, if there’s meetings, once or twice a month how would they know. So that tradition has been passed on down you know, you do the same thing over and over until later years when you learn a lot more, and for Masonry, it’s a learning expense. It’s an expense because the more you learn, the more you do. And when I went to Masonry, they only allowed you to have certain books, or they’d issue it to you. But me, I went out and bought more books. They didn’t know what I had at my house.
Laughter.
James Hunn: So you know. Now, my kids don’t want any of it, so I’ve given it to other, other Masons.
Sam: Mhm.
James Hunn: Couple other good guys that I’ll give all my books to you know, because I’ve already retained it you know, so somebody else needs it to learn what I know, so they can carry it on and give it to somebody else.
Sam: And were those books directly related to Masonry?
James Hunn: Yeah.
Sam: OK.
James Hunn: You can find them on the internet now.
Sam: Mhm.
James Hunn: One is uh, Look to the East, and then there's several more too that you can go uh, that you can find on that internet that you can…
Sam: Mhm. Mhm hm… and what was different-
00:30:03 James Hunn
But, most of those companies has went out of business- I think only one of them has our books.
Book company at Chicago.
00:30:11 Sam Merritt Mhm hm
00:30:12 James Hunn
There used to be- used to be one in Cincinnati and one in Virginia. That you could buy all kinds of Masonic supplies from them you know. But, um some of them went out of business, so hard to retain those books now.
00:30:30 Sam Meritt
Speaking of books, Charles, I am aware that you were instrumental in publishing a book about the Masonic Lodge, specifically Doric Lodge?
00:30:39 Charles Grey Okay.
Yeah I was the Master.
00:30:43 Sam Meritt Mhm.
00:30:44 Charles Grey
In, we had a– the year, I was a Master, 1985, We was going, we celebrate our hundredth anniversary.
00:30:55 Sam Merritt
Mhmm.
00:30:56 Charles Grey
So, I felt in order to do that, we needed to know the history about the lodge: How it got started– And so, this book, here [holding up a physical copy of a book] is the history of the Doric Lodge. And the reason why, I am getting credit for publishing it because I was the Master. And we had a anniversary day at the church, at the First Baptist Church. We had all the grand **** ( Inaudible) and anyone who wanted to come. To celebrate our hundredth anniversary— And that was a great day.
00:31:43 James Hunn
And I couldn't attend because I was going in.
00:31:45 Sam Merritt
I see, I see.
00:31:46 James Hunn
I could attend, but not enter, as a Mason.
00:31:49 Charles Grey
He came in after me.
00:31:52 James Hunn
And this was the closing- This [Doric Lodge] one day moved from Second Street to Walnut Street.
[Charles Gray demonstrating interviewers a book/paper document]
I saw that, but I didn’t pass it around unless he choose to do so.
00:32:05 Charles Grey
What I brought in these books to show you the different aspects of Masonry. And this one here I went to Washington D.C. to get my thirty third degree.
So all these people from Los Angeles to everywhere– They are my brothers. I don’t know them but we don’t have to know each other. But the thirty third is the highest I can go.
And so, this one here, is the Shriners. And like I said this one here is the Masons. The first third degrees– So… I brought them, so you can see the different sections are groups of Masonry. And there are others, not as prominent as these, but these got a lot accredited.
00:33:23 James Schroeder
Were all the Masonic Lodges religiously affiliated? Like did all of them have Christian teachings?
00:33:28 James Hunn/Charles Grey Yes.
00:33:30 James Schroeder
Follow up question is, how did it defer from church? Or like normal church session.
00:33:37 James Hunn and Charles Grey
It was the way it was structured, yeah.
00:33:42 James Hunn
At the first one, there was a time where Muslim or Catholic couldn’t join to become Mason.
But now these days, they can. The only thing that is different, is whatever religious book that the Catholic used, and whatever book the Muslims used. We use the Bible, they use the Quran, and whatever book the Catholic uses is what they use. But it is still the same.
00:34:20 Charles Grey
Contrary to what people think, its all Christian. No matter where you see some of them doing, its based on Christian theory. All of it.
00:34:39 Simonne Petersen
Kind of in reference to the photo you sent around, can you talk more on how Urban Renewal affected your organization?
00:34:49 Charles Grey
Okay.
00:34:50 Charles Grey
Urban renewal came through Second Street, and they wanted the whole block. So we had our lodge home in the center of the block- and it was a good building. It was a good building and they wanted it. And they, the eminent domain, took it. They said you are going to get “x” amount of dollars, and they were negotiating a little bit. But at the end, it [Doric Lodge] had to leave.
So that’s when we got this building.
00:35:29 James Hunn
Yeah.
00:35:32 Charles Grey
It was around the corner, which was, they called it, the Odd Fellas. And they had this building, but they kinda went kathump*
00:35:41 James Hunn
Yeah, they went out of business.
00:35:43 Charles Grey
They went out of business. So we was able to get that building, that’s how we come to this.
00:35:50 James Hunn
This was back in the 70’s.
00:35:51 Charles Grey
This building here, is no comparison to what we had.
00:35:59 James Schroeder
When you said it was a good building, you meant like so–
00:36:05 James Hunn and Charles Gray
Structurally.
00:36:04 James Schroeder
So like it definitely wasn’t a part of the slums?
00:36:08 Charles Grey
No
00:36:09 James Hunn Noo- no
00:36:09 James Schroeder
That, were supposedly targeted?
00:36:12 James Hunn
It was just in a part of the area they wanted.
00:36:13 Charles Gray
It was in the area that they wanted. Now, some of the buildings around it were slum, but that building was not.
00:36:26 Simonne Petersen
Do you have specific memories about that building in particular?
00:36:32 Charles Grey
Everything. That’s where you got your start. I’m going to say this– Where you is raised;
From a dead level, to living perpendicular on the square. And if y’all ever hear that from somebody else, It will mean something to you. But what it means is, when you was nothing, and you got straighten up to be something. Along with the teachings- that is what is it about.
00:37:12 Sam Merritt
The living, er- like becoming perpendicular on the square, is that Mason language specifically-
00:37:19 Charles Grey
Its Mason language. And you, the only way you are going to know this is, is you got to study. So I can say that, you won’t know exactly everything So said a little something, to get your interest up
But, there is a change in you; When you straighten up.
00:37:44 James Hunn
You’ll noticed a difference, in how other Masons will treat you too.
00:37:50 Charles Grey
Yeah– respect
00:37:50 James Hunn Respect.
00:37:56 Simonne Peterson What did this building look like?
00:38:00 James Hunn
Its…
00:38:00 Charles Grey Well–
00:38:03 James Hunn Its..
00:38:05 Charles Grey Go ahead-
00:38:07 James Hunn
I am trying to say, what is there a picture in here, Charles?
00:38:11 Charles Grey
Yeah–
[Paper Flipping Noises]
00:38:19 James Hunn Here is one,
00:38:20 Charles Grey You can pass it around.
00:38:20 Simonne Petersen Thank you.
00:38:23 Sam Merritt
I am aware that first and second floor were some business, were those other directly supporting, other then being housed, in the Doric Lodge- Were those supported by Doric Lodge no matter what?
00:38:35 Charles Grey
They were private business there.
00:30:38 Sam Merrit
Private businesses
00:38:39 Charles Grey And they are
00:38:40 James Hunn
One time on the second floor, on that building there was a barber shop
00:38:47 Charles Grey
And also a beautician shop, in different stages of time they have different business. Back in the earlier days I heard they had a dental office- In my time, they had a tire company,--
00:39:07 James Hunn
There was a grocery store..
00:39:06 Charles Grey
Pentrolum store, and those were rented. Those were used to support rent to support the building.
00:39:15 Sam Meritt
What was the name of grocery store, was it Gordan or…
00:39:18 James Hunn and Charles Grey
I can’t remember no more- Singleton.
00:39:20 Sam Merritt Singleton- okay.
00:39:22 James Schroeder
From what you can understand, they were successful business?
00:39:25 Charles Grey
They did pretty good.
00:39:25 James Hunn Yeah.
00:39:25 Charles Grey
But they couldn’t compete with A&P, and stores like Kroger. They sold little necessities, like Dollar Store does.
00:39:40 Dr. Jeff Shenton
So we have about fifteen minutes left and so I’m wondering if, and Charles is going to join us next week. Talk about more about his personal history interview and I am wondering if we have Jim here now, to ask a few questions that are more his own background. Would you like to answer some of those questions? Is that okay?
00:39:58 James Hunn Yeah. I don’t mind.
00:40:00 Dr. Jeff Shenton Wonderful. Alright.
00:40:01 James Hunn
I didn't come, I am not native Danvillian.
00:40:05 Dr. Jeff Shenton
That’s okay, we want to hear more about-
00:40:07 James Hunn
I come to Danville in the 1962, after I got out of service and my wife is really from Danville. So..
00:40:15 Cindy Zamarripa
So I wanted to ask about, like how, your helping people with like lawsuits, and stuff? Because, while I was reading some information, you, have experience, working with like the class action lawsuit. And helping people those file discrimination laws. Because I am interested in your own experience, that you have so far, if you had someone help you?
00:40:36 James Hunn I never want.. Basically after I retired, I became a member of the Danville Boyle County Human Rights Commission, and I was on the commission for twenty some years. Before, I became the second. And I got a lot, a lot of folks [inaudible] from Lexington housing asking for counseling for twenty some years too. But I did the same thing.
But, in 1966 I was hired by a railroad company.
00:41:18 Charles Grey
I would like to say something-
00:41:28 James Hunn
So I was hired by the railroad company back in 1966, about 65’, 66’, and about 1970… The railroad started promoting– Let me go back. At the beginning, I was hired, there was a decree out that all companies has to start hiring 25 percent all new, us, African American. It was not pretty.
In 1970 they begin to hire engineers, but what they did, they went to the lowest African Americans, they went by the oldest and those who weren’t old African American that were working at the time, they started at the white engineers. [Pay rate] So in 72’ or 73’ we file, what I started as a, I was working on the ground, as switcher. And so they hire a guy under me as a yard master. So everytime I work, the rulebook said, that everybody be promoted the same way, same wage. But my theory, was, if they- I should’ve been promoted first, if I was equal to that person.
Regardless of my status, and time- So every time he worked as a yard master. And one time he told me not to send any more time stamps in. Every time I worked, I still fill out that time stamp and waited for thirty-forty days Before I turned it all in, a whole bunch time stamps/slips all at one time. They didn’t fool me. Then they, in 73’, we file a discrimination center, and we had to go to Ohio to get lawyers. But that was the beginning, it took eleven years later, 83’ They settled the lawsuit. And that went from Cincinnati to Chattanooga, eighty-something African Americans got paid for by that lawsuit. Lawyers got most of the money, still. They always do.
So then, years later they combine the yard seniority to the road seniority, So I went on the road.
In 75’ I become a engineer on the railroad and in 83’ they fire me. For derailing an engine that was in the yard. I was fired from that because of the lawsuit. And then, it was a few years later that some guys in Birmingham filed a discrimination suit.
45:20 Simonne Petersen mmhmm
45:21 James Hunn
and uh, they was… the company was telling them that they had never been sued… had never been sued for discrimination, so somehow they was asking around if, about that suit and so they told them, they said, if anybody got any of that information, said y’all need to call James Hunn. Ha ha.
45:44 Cindy Zamarripa [laughter]
45:45 James Hunn
So, I had the whole package, so I sent them the whole package, and when they got, I guess recompited … And then they sent it back to me. So, when they fired me, you know I called them, what I did, in another, I got, I got fired for.. For yard speed, you know, being able to stop within a dis- a scene. But, way it was, we always sit backwards right, right at our backs so we could see what was going on and not standing in front of us. And then the guys filed for speeding. We went to the label board at the same time, they put him back to work, and didn’t put me back to work, but it was about three months later so… They put, when they put him back to work, instead of me letting him go back, they made a run. I was going to work and made a run, actually made a run, I called the lawyers and the sitting lieutenant and well the EEOC officer of the railroad- said let me, if I let him go to work, go to work, and make that trip they would’ve had to put me back, so I just made my move too soon
47:00 Cindy Zamarripa Hmm
47:01 James Hunn
But it was. . .Yeah it was good. And I’ve helped a lot of people. What.. what.. What s- what so so yeah, and uh. I be I been beaten into court with two or three people too. I had one juror tell that if- uh, not to come back in there, his courtroom that unless I had. Ha ha
47:26 Cindy Zamarripa [laughter]
47:28 James Hunn
My license. I was up there with a girl in the news, she was, being pulled out you know.
47:32 Cindy Zamarripa Mmhmm
47:33 James Hunn
And the owners of the apartment she was in, they was asking for the money. And I told her, I was telling them that if if um they didn’t agree to what, you know, she could pay and everything, they might not get anything. And the judge, I mean he’s talking about, said, Mr. Hunn, said, you’re talking about, taking a lawsuit, I said, yes sir your honor. Ha ha
47:59 Cindy Zamarripa [laughter]
48:00 James Hunn
He said don’t come back in my courtroom, ha ha, unless you got that license, I said, yes sir your honor ha ha. But, a lot of other people too you know. So in uh, ‘95, when, when I retired, one Sunday I was in church, and I went to the alter, and I prayed that, lord, give me the knowledge and the strength to help people, and that’s what I've been doing ever since. I’ve had, you know, as many whites as I have blacks, come to me and ask me, how to go about doing something that is illegal- legal, not illegal
48:49
[laughter] ha
48:50 Cindy Zamarripa Distinction matters
48:53 James Hunn
Yeah.. but, I’m enjoying this.. Yeah.. and I’m also a nuttery so I do a lot of nuttery
49:02 James Hunn
It’s good, it’s good, I like, I just like love helping people. If I can help somebody that’s what I want to do. And I think everybody should have that attitude. Always lend a hand. And you always get paid back double for what you do, it always come back to you
49:23 Simonne Petersen
Do you feel as though this value of helping people was established in you through childhood?
49:31 James Hunn Yes it was.
49:32 Simonne Petersen Can you explain that a bit?
49:34 James Hunn
When I was a child, I, I was born and raised in the country, I was born at home, march 25 1941. And I grow up there, I would cut older people, there was a lot of older people in my neighborhood. I would get their water, get their coal, and kindling, and wood in, and just wait on them. Cut their grass, that was instilled in me from a young age, and I’m still doing it today.
Anybody I can help, I will. I can help y’all too with anything but math
50:14
[laughter]
50:15 James Hunn Anything but math
50:18 Sam Merritt
You’re helping us right now
50:19 James Hunn
Ha ha. Yeah. And, and, when I retired, … I retired at 55 and a half. And when I got 65, you know, the state of Kentucky, you can go to any kind of state college, and it’s gonna be free. So when I got 65, I went back to college and I got my degree.
50:39 James Hunn
That’s 70 years, it took me 5 years, but I- I got it.
50:44 James Schroeder
That sense of helping people, do you think that uh drew you to the Masonic lodge?
50:50 James Hunn
I think that’s mostly from my childhood.
50:55 Cindy Zamarripa
So, do you know anyone else who went to college back afterwards? Or was it just yourself
51:02 James Hunn
I don’t know anyone. I know a lot of people, yeah I know one or two people that have done that after I have, but I don’t know exactly, I can’t remember who they were. Not anyone that I know around here. I had a friend in Louisville that asked me about doing it, but I don’t think he went back
51:18 Simonne Petersen
What was your experience in college?
51:20 James Hunn It was good.
51:20
[laughter]
51:21 James Hunn
I really enjoyed it. Because, you know, like you all, young people, you know, I been through a lot of things I can tell them about to kind maybe help them avoid, avoid some things too. I never smoked any marijuana though y’all.
51:40
[laughter]
51:42 James Hunn
Never tried it. I seen a lot of it, I seen it when it used to be called hemp too. Was always scared to. And I only ever got drunk one time in my life, and that was at a high school prom. I was sick for uh 3 or 4 days after that too Look like every time I drank water a drank water i would get drunk again
52:14
[laughter]
52:17 James Hunn
Y’all don’t want to get there, and you don’t want to get dry heaves either.
52:27 Sam Merritt
Any more stories from college that you’re willing to share?
52:30 James Hunn
Aw no, it was real nice you know? There was a lot of students there. But, I did have one instructor, and uh, we was talking after American studies I think it was, and they got talking about the civil war. And I know about the civil war, and he did, and I don’t think he liked it too good. [laughter]
52:54 Sam Merritt
Did you know specifically about Camp Nelson?
52:57 James Hunn
Oh, yes, I know about Camp Nelson. I know, I know all about camp Nelson. You know I'm a- I am a civil war reenactor. I don’t do as much as I used to do, but I’ve got a uniform and everything with the 12th united states colored air artillery. I think I got a card in my pocket. That picture was taken that time, down on the James River
53:39 Cindy Zamarripa Wow
53:41 Sam Merritt
And how long were you involved with them?
53:45 James Hunn
Since about 2000. I’m still active. I still pay my dues and everything to the 12th United States Colored Air artillery. But I don’t do any… any place, I have a breathing problem. The Marine Corp. messed me up, can’t y’all see all the information and pass it around to anybody that wants to see it. Uh y’all see that commercial about Camp Lejeune on TV?
54:15 Cindy Zamarripa Um we’re not familiar
54:16 James Hunn
Yeah, well if you see some ads, they’ve got a lot of ads going on TV. I don’t know how much y’all watch TV. Uh Camp Lejeune uh laundry fluid got in the ground water system at Camp Lejeune uh and it caused a lot of problems with uh, a lot of women had miscarriages, children had defects and everything. So this happened in 193- 19 and 53, started 53 and lasted to 1987. So they just now begin to, they been researching there for a long time, but they just now really been saying that it affected our health. I have about 10 of the diseases that they detected in that water, and one of them is, one of them is breathing, breathing, lungs, swallowing, rashes on my skin, uh and it’s, it says it is, I did a little research on it, it says it’s more contagious for gentile Native Americans and African Americans. Hands, skin and joint pain, and somewhere I got out of out of the marine corp. Supposedly arthritis, but I think it’s now more so associated with that water, than joint pains. And I know that somewhere in my medical records it says that my whole skeletal system, so that means my whole body, and I know one of the first times that one of the times I went to the VA in Lexington I stood up and they scanned my whole body and they x-rayed my whole skeletal system. That’s what I got to live with.
56:19 Jeffrey Shenton
Well we can keep asking you questions for a long time, but we are at 3:30 and Charles had something that he wanted to finish with
56:26 Charles Grey
Yeah I- Yes I-.. This is about Masonry, and I will leave this with you all, and uh what I wanted uh, this book here, like I said, was the 100th anniversary, it’s got the history and everything, participants and everything that we did that we could come up with for the 100th anniversary is in this book. And there was a guy that uh here, his name was Charles Stub, and he was a farmer. And he donated 1000 dollars to the lodge so they could build it, he was one of
- And this is his niece, and she came in to uh Danville from Sunforth Virginia this summer because she never been to Danville and she wanted to know where her grandfather lived. So she did that, and uh, then we had uh. Uh. Archibald Rochester, and he was a businessman, he was a painter, and he made good money, and he had a daughter named Suzie Fish, and she was a teacher at bates school. These are large brothers I’m talking about, Archibald and Charles, and this is the uh teacher that taught at Bates school for 55 years, and so, I’m just trying to show you the connections of the lodge, and what these men did, and there’s more, but I just, I just got a few. This one here is uh John W Bate, he’s the founder of Bates School, and he came out of slavery and went to Berea college, and he started the school here in Danville. So he was a large brother too, and I said all that to say this, that I am a Shriner, and I do have a 33rd degree. My Shriner’s picture is in here, and my picture’s in here for the 33rd degree, but the point I’m trying to make is, that I am proud, super proud to say that I’m a mason, because of the people that I followed. Professor bate was a master of the lodge, I was a master of the lodge. Archibald Rochester was a master of the lodge, and when you can follow behind people like this that have names of good people, that’s what the lodge did for me. Thank you all.
1:00:00 Sam Merritt
Thank you for that beautiful sentiment and for your time today, I really appreciate it.
1:00:05 Jeffrey Shenton
James is there anything you’d like to add that we didn’t get to talk about?
1:00:08 James Hunn No
1:00:09 Jeffrey Shenton Or anything else?
1:00:10 James Hunn
Oh I got, I got a lot, but I don’t have the time ha ha
1:00:15 Charles Grey
Now, I just wanted to get this in because-
1:00:17 James Hunn
You were just going to do me and uh, about Urban Renewal, weren’t you? But later time, sometimes
1:00:23 Jeffrey Shenton
Uh we can- If you’d like to come back and talk about that, we’d love to have you.
1:00:27 James Hunn
Yeah I want to because you know, I got out of the service when it first began.
1:00:32 Jeffrey Shenton
Yeah that’s great. Would you like to come back next week? Would you have time to do that sometime next week?
1:00:36 James Hunn
No I’ve got a bunch of doctor's appointments next week.
1:00:38 Jeffrey Shenton
Ok, so we’ll be doing these interviews until about the 23rd, so, would you have time before then?
1:00:44 James Hunn
Yeah yeah, just, just, you have my email and cell phone number, you can call me when you want to do it.
1:00:47 Jeffrey Shenton
Yeah we’ll contact you through Charles, we’ll get your number, that sounds great. Ok, yeah we’d love to have you back.
1:00:53 James Hunn
Yeah, cause I, you know, I was, I had a house built, and I wouldn’t take it because there were two mortgages, they had two mortgages on it. And I thought it.. Build a house and have a complete mortgage on it, and then to have a second mortgage, when we got ready to close out we had to take out a second mortgage and I wouldn’t do it.
1:01:20 Jeffrey Shenton
That’s great, we’ll come back and we’ll talk all about it, that sounds good, thank you so much.
1:01:24 James Hunn
Right, you’re welcome, thank you.
1:01:26
Thank you.
1:01:28 Charles Grey Enjoyed it.