Rev. Ralph Boyd Smith

"See this is why I say, you know, people need to be educated. They need to come and grasp hold of the history, because there’s so much history that we could talk about it all day long and it still wouldn’t be enough of history that has been given down through the years."

Parts of this transcript were auto-generated and may contain errors.

Meghan: My name is Meghan Owens and today I am interviewing Reverend Boyd Smith who has lived in Danville, all of his life. I'm here today with Mr. Smith, Mr. Hughes, Mr. Gray, Dr. Shenton and Ethan Scott today is April 19th, 2022. We are recording this interview in Danville Boyle county African-American society. And today will be discussing Reverend Smith and his experiences during the second half of the 20th century.

Ethan: All right, Reverend Smith. So I guess we'll just go ahead and start off with asking about where you're from in Danville, and then tell us just a little bit about your early life and growing up here.

(0:59) Mr. Smith: Okay. I was raised on Russell street, as a matter of fact where the new soccer field is, the scoreboard was my backyard. So that's where I was raised up. I had a wonderful life. I grew up here in Danville, finished my high school, in seventy three. I was in band music and so forth, but grew up in Danville, had very fond memories of Russel street, Dillehay street, those streets, that's now gone. Southern avenue Fern street, and so forth, but it would have been Danville. I had a lot of friends, especially when we started going to what was Toliver school, I went to Bate High school for the first four grades. And after integration, you know, when to Toliver then on to Bate Junior High and then Danville high school and which I came in contact and I had several white friends and one of my best friends still yet, you know, was one of the guys that we met by doing so in Toliver, and so forth.

Meghan: So you said you went to Bate high school. Could you tell me a little bit more about your experience going to Danville or going to Danville high school?

Mr. Smith: It was, for me, it was a wonderful experience. Cause I said, I went through, through the original Bate High School from a fourth through, from the first to the fourth grade. Then from third, I went to Toliver school for fourth and fifth grade, sixth grade, then back to what was then Bate junior high school for seventh and eighth grade. And then from third to them, high school from ninth through 12th grade.

Ethan: So you said that you made a few friends after the integration of the schools. Do you think you could tell us a little bit more about that experience? You know, personally, I guess speaking for people that you were close... their experiences with integration. I guess kind of harp on the overall experience for everyone.

Mr Smith: Okay. For my one friend that he lives out of state. And, I think it was last year. His mom passed away here in Danville, and he come home and he called me, he said, you know, you, you have been my friend for years and I used to want to talk to, but you know, we've always been, been friends somewhere within seventy four, seventy five. It became a member of this one group that we call Power Play in which— biggest part of us, you know, grew up together, in high school. And so, but, you know, I played with them for several years.  We didn't see, or at least I did not see, racism per se, as what has been become known as things going through that, in which they're going through right now with in this world; because, you know, I did say, you know, I had several white friends growing up on Russel street, Beatty avenue. Then, you know, there were, were houses on Beatty Avenue and cause you know I had friends over there too. So, you know, per se, most of them, which were well white that grew up on, on Beatty avenue. Yes.

Meghan: So from your time when you were a child growing up in Danville to now, are there any distinct differences you can see in the Danville community in terms of just like friendliness, togetherness, or just like the sense of community in general?

(5:16) Mr Smith: Danville is, is, you know, it's different. Uh, if I can say that we as the Black neighborhood, are not as close as to the way it was when I was coming up. Um, cause I say, you know, um, urban renewal, you know, to Black neighborhoods per se, away from us. Uh, Russell street, like I say, Fern street Oak street, which is now the baseball field, uh, you know, all that right there. Well you know, I can remember my grandparents, even right there, probably within center field and so forth. There is a difference, per se, in our families growing up, especially in this timeframe, um, the closeness is not there. Okay. For example, um, at Danville High school, and at Bate High school, you know, I had, uh, like say for example, my neighbor was, you know, one of my teachers at Danville high school, all the other teachers were my parents' friends. So if I messed up, you know, my mom knew about it immediately. I can recall one instance in one class I had was when my teachers and we walked in, and I was, some of the kids was teasing and laughing about some was laughing. And she said, "mhm" she called her name. She said, nah, I know your parents. And all I have to do is to call her number. And she said, Ralph, All I got to do with you is just to go next door. That was one class, another class, you know, was it was a member of the church. So, you know, we grew up in the state of mind, you know, in timeframe where, uh, where people cared about you and because of the love that was shown for you, you know, uh, mom and dad knew.

Ethan: You mentioned church as being, uh, as being one of those, one of those kind of, um, characteristics of kind of the, the, you know, not even second street but really the Danville community in general that, uh, helped help, uh, bring people together. Um, w would you say that's a fair statement, do you think, do you think churches were a way for people to, you know, to build that sense of community and togetherness?

Mr Smith: Yes. I'm, I'm blessed now to pastor the church that I grew up in, uh, that I was baptized in as a child, I grew up in as a young man, as a boy, as a young man. So, um, and, um, like I say, during times then, you know, everybody was concerned. Uh, love was shown if you did something that wasn't right. You know, Um, I can remember my mom we'd be sitting in the church and if I left her something, she would grab me by my arm and pinch me. Made, me look, you know, that's a no-no. Or, or she would be in the choir stand singing and I'd be in the choir in the back of the church, and she would just give me a little eye like that. And I knew that I was in trouble. There is a difference, I feel, of the churches of yesterday than the churches of this day in time. You don't have the authority as of yesterday, per se, you know, parents or so forth, you know, raising the age child up knowing right from wrong. We live in a timeframe where there is no respect for the elders members, not only in church, but elder members as a whole.

Meghan: So did you know when you were younger that you always wanted to be a pastor or was there anything that led you to that or guided you to that?

(9:45) Mr. Smith: No. And if I can be real, coming up, being a young man, and yes, I did attend church. I was a member of the church, but I did things that wasn't pleasing within God's eyesight and I'm just being real. I grew up in a town where my father was a treasure of St. James, and I could be down on the street on my bike riding and he would stop by and say, “park your bike.” Say, “you're going with me to church,” to the meetings and so forth. And so I had to go with him to different meetings. Dad passed away in October of 1980 and some years later, the pastor at that time, came to me and asked me to step in and to be the treasurer of the church. And I'm like, okay. Then some years later I received what I felt was a calling from God. And I went to my pastor at that time and spoke with him and he prayed with me and he let me know what it was. And it was some years later. Well, we call it as running from the call and it was some six years before I truly answered the call into the ministry. And I gave my initial sermon in December 23rd, 1990.

Ethan: So, would you say, in the second street community, other than churches, do you think that there were other aspects of the kind of historical second street area that, kind of built to the, again, the sense of community and togetherness that existed there?

Mr. Smith: Yes. You know, Coming up up as a child, you know, I would come to second street for my, you know, for haircuts and so forth. And I was looking at the map. And I was mindful of one shop that was a bike shop. This guy worked on bikes. And so I came there several times and I cannot remember the guy's name, but I do remember going to the shop. And as a young child, my father gave me restrictions as to where I could go and where I was not to go. I knew that the pool hall was off limits, certain places in town, for me, was off limits during that time frame. But, the barbershop and I can remember the other places that we could go to.

Meghan: So you mentioned that your father gave you places that you weren't to go and that were off limits, but were there other places that you couldn't go, or how did segregation affect what you were able to do as a kid growing up?

 

Mr. Smith: Per se? We didn't notice it really per se, because I could be on my bike and, you know, back then, we could ride, you know, we'd ride down second street, projects up the street, so forth... East Main. I do remember one instance that me and my partner. His father was a barber at the barbershop on main street. And, the times that we would be riding and we would go to, to visit daddy and we always had to go through the back door. And I still remember that. On main street was a barbershop. They had three Black barbers. And when we went to the business that we had to go through the back door and that has always stayed with me.

Ethan: Urban renewal, I know, is a gradual thing. In most cases it is. But the effects are felt rapidly. Would you say this is kind of a true thing? Do you think, with urban renewal... Do you think, personally, how your life was impacted with urban renewal?

(15:02) Mr Smith: Urban renewal, with my mindset, took Black identity. And I say that because I can recall Southern avenue, Oak street, Fern street, Bate street. Those were our identity; wonderful houses, wonderful people. And a portion of Russell street, Green street but then was called green street. Now it's Martin Luther king Boulevard. A portion of Walnut street, and to me that was our Black identity, and we look now at the houses that's no longer there. Soccer field. Baseball field.  For me it was good memories. I had friends that lived on those streets and we would go visit and so forth. And then that's one area that I could see that Danville has changed. When you're thinking about the park up here, which at one time was the Black businesses of Danville. And to me, it robbed us of our Black identity about Black history.

Meghan: So with urban renewal in mind, how do you think the best way is to educate the young folk of today? Because I know in school growing up -I grew up around here- and we didn't hear anything about it, but it's a very important part of history and I feel like people, especially in this area, have a right to know about it, because it is our history. So, what would you suggest moving forward would be the best way to educate people and inform people of what did take place?

Mr. Smith: This center is one way of doing it for people to come in to receive the history. Most people ,when they come to park up here, they think that they, but it has always been there. But no, that was Black businesses, that was the stores. That was the barbershop, that there was a gas station. But situations like this, for people to come in to have to be given lessons... I would say a teaching moment as to the history of Danville.

Ethan: So you talked about barbers and other businesses on second street that were a big part of your life growing up. Can you, can you kind of, I guess talk about that a little bit more? Like what- you mentioned the barbershops, like what other, what other sort of businesses, and what other sort of like stores or places were big for you and your friends growing up? Like, I guess what are the, what are the most memorable places on second street for you? That was it, you know, because during that time I was a young, you know, young 8, what 8, 9, 10. 11, 12 or riding a bike and so forth. And I'm trying to recall the year that this place was taken down with, as far as the building,

Mr. Hughes: 71, early seventies, 71. Urban renewal came through.

(19:22) Mr Smith: Yeah. Which is 71. I was a sophomore in high school then.

Mr. Hughes: It was probably all gone in 1973. Everything was cleared out that was targeted.

Mr. Smith: So the 71 in that timeframe, I was in high school, and I was into music and stuff, you know, in the band and so forth. So we just passing through in that timeframe.

Ethan: So how do you think the local congregations were impacted by urban renewal? Do you think, uh, do you think that there was a sense of fragmentation of a lot of the congregations? Do you think congregations are what helped keep people together through urban renewal? What, what would you say?

Mr. Smith: Yes, because to a certain degree Black people were lied to. I'm not gonna call this name, the person that was over urban renewal

Mr. Hughes: Called it a hundred times.

Mr. Smith: His son and I—we was in school together, so everybody knew each other. We did not know- I really did not know that at that time to what extent that he had over the Urban Renewal, but yes, we was in school together. But then as I grew up and I see what it has done... when you sit back, sometimes it somewhat makes you angry when you notice that your neighborhood is gone and the people that they took their property from did not receive what they should have received for that property. In other words, it was taken from the Black community.

Meghan: So moving over to Centre College a little bit. What role did you see them play throughout history? Have you seen any positive transformations within the college itself in terms of diversity or inclusion? How did they interact with the community when you were young versus now?

(23:39) Mr. Smith: Okay. Yes, my grandfather was a custodian at Centre College, and probably the top one, I guess, and so forth. So I was able to go to all the games. He called me, "grandson I'm coming out to get you."  So, I'd be at basketball games, football games, and so forth. Down through the years, I have watched Centre College change as far as different ones now that have- that has attended, and that are still yet attending Centre College and it's for the good. I've seen change just as far as far as buildings that have been built and still yet work that they are still doing. And I can rem ember what used to be in that spot. You know, I go through Bate avenue and I can remember houses, friends of mine that lived in the houses along there. Now it's a parking lot. The buildings that have been built that wasn't there then. And I can remember  the old high school -Danville  high school -there is where Norton Center is now. Then it was the old Danville high school and the changes that have been made or that were made

Ethan: So this is something that you experience all the time, just driving through Danville? Do you often have memories come back or do you often see places and kind of just think to yourself, "there used to be something here it's not there anymore,” something that's, after all of these years, do you still have these recurring memories?

Mr Smith: Yes. Okay. For example, It was two weeks ago, I think it was two weeks ago. It was Transylvania baseball team playing Centre college and my nephew plays for Transylvania. So I'm up there sitting in the stands with my brother-in-law and I said, yeah. I said, center field was where, uh, my grandma lived— I said over here. And I say, if you look over there by the score board. So I go, I said that was my backyard, so yes.

Meghan: So for employment, what kind of opportunities were you given, growing up for employment? I know you're preaching now, but did you have any jobs prior to beginning?

(24:55) Mr. Smith: Okay. My father had a trash hauling business that he started, I guess in 47, 48, 49. Okay. If Russel street, one thing about Russell Street was that  it was straight, it was the guy that owned Smith's funeral home. On the other end, it was my father who had his trash business. And in-between were people, you know, uh, photo Smith is, uh, murders hair. So we only had three hair salons, on Russell Street and the store right up the street. But yes,,my father had the business. The trash business. And if I came back home from Columbus, Ohio, I took over the business in April of 1976. My father passed, I could say in October of 1980, and I ran the business until I sold out in 1990.

Ethan: Kind of harping on what she was talking about with employment, second street, you said again about kind of a thriving business district, the employment opportunities that second street brought. Do you think that that was something that was lost? Do you think that that's something that is still affecting people today? The kind of the jobs and whatnot that were lost after the project was completed.

Mr. Smith: Yes. I would say that it did affect people. I don't know what percentage you could say that it did affect people, but yes it did. And I think my main concern would be, with Urban Renewal, is that it was the identity of who we were, why we were.

Ethan: So you said you're still at the same church that you grew up in. Do you think there are any congregations that have disappeared or appeared after all these years, sticking around the time of urban renewal, but even,  predating or postdating kind of the main years of urban renewal. Have you seen any congregations disappear, appear, anything that's kind of added or taken away from the community?

(27:54) Mr. Smith: Okay. Not because of urban renewal. I haven't seen changes because there's as a Methodist, you know, I by Bishop moves us, you know? And so I was able to pastor in Harrodsburg, St. Peter, it's right down — it's on the corner, if you're going through Harrodsburg. And I was there for 14 years, I was in, Somerset for seven years. There's community called Western chaplain in Parksville. I was there for three years and then in Lincoln County this section, they call Turnersville, but I was there for three years, but you know I've seen churches grow, I've seen churches split, but I cannot say that it was because of urban renewal.

Dr. Shenton: Actually. I have a follow-up question to that. Is that okay? So one conversation we've had sort of ongoing is where did people go as a result of urban renewal and people's property being taken here in Danville? So I'm wondering if before urban renewal, if the St. James AME church here in town was drawing mostly from Black neighborhoods in town, and, if so, now what is the makeup of the congregation look like? Where are they coming from, and where do they live now? People who are coming to that church?

Mr. Smith: Basically in Danville, the makeup is probably 95%... somewhere between 90 and 95%. You know, Black, uh, you know, my, you know, ? That a place for us? As far as the piano and keyboards and guitars, you know, they all like white guys that plays. Matter of fact, the guy that plays bass for us; he's a professor at Centre college. It's the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he comes in and sits down and he gets off. He gets motivated.

Ethan: So you mentioned the demographic of your congregation currently. So, I know I kind of asked a similar question earlier, but you know, would you say the congregations have kind of persisted now to the present and in keeping that community, that sense of community alive still, keeping the people that were a part of Second Street and then their children and their grandchildren, keeping everyone and that sense of family and friendship together. Would you say that, you know, these congregations in town are still contributing to that?

Mr. Smith: Yes. Yes. As we grow, yes. You've asked them churches that have somewhat broke off. Some left left here and went to another part of town and started up the church and so forth. But. Overall, you know, the church that I centered on ... giving God the praise for the god that he is, but, better yet, the churches are still growing because of the effects. I think through Danville.

Dr. Shenton: Do you have a large group of families? I mean, it's another way of asking sort of the same kind of question, but do you still have a group of the same families that have the legacy of attending your church? Is it the same set of families or do you see

Mr. Smith: It's family.

Dr. Shenton: But is it the same set of families that were before urban renewal? Do you know? Or are they different families? I'm trying to get a sense of how many people left town as a result of urban renewal and how many people stuck around.

Mr. Smith: I can't say that Urban Renewal has been what has caused people to leave. Our young people — when they finished school and when they go to college. They're looking for better jobs, and the bigger cities give them more opportunity. For example, my oldest grandson is a sophomore at UK. It's already been said, "I'm not coming back and probably not coming back," you know, because of the job opportunities, there's other places and Danville now is for those who are retiring, and that's the most that's coming back to Danville.

Dr. Shenton: It's still the same families that are still attending St. James Church, but it's just, the demographic is getting older, right? Because this, the same folks who are, who have been attending for a long time?

Mr. Smith: Correct. Yes.

(32:54) Dr. Shenton: Has there been any African American families that have moved to town that have become new members of the church in the last two decades? Has that been a big subset of the congregation too?

Mr. Smith: Yes

Dr. Shenton: It has?

(33:08) Mr. Smith: Mhm, age group wise you know, most of those my age you know, we are considered as the older folk-

(Audible laughing)

Mr. Smith: You know although there’s several there that are-you know we have 80-year-olds, 90-year-olds, you know those who are faithful but uh most of us now you know, and sometimes we somewhat will sit back and laugh and just say well we used to make fun of the other folk and now they look at us smiling.

(Audible laughing)

Meghan: So, with that being said, when you were younger did you ever think about moving away or what drew you to stay in Danville?

(33:34) Mr. Smith: Yeah, like I said you know I did, I left Danville and went to Columbus, Ohio to school, and uh-Country boy and city life just didn’t mix-

(Audible laughing)

Mr. Smith: And so, I ended up coming back home, and then working for dad, and taking over that.

Ethan: This is a bit of a speculative question and if you don’t have a, you know, an idea in mind that’s okay, but something I’m just curious about, uhm, because you were able to see the Second Street community and see it’s, you know, contributions to Danville, uhm, what do you think Danville would be like if, you know, Urban Renewal-I’m not going to say hadn’t happened at all, but hadn’t happened to the extent that it did? If those communities were still there, if the businesses had remained, uhm, if a lot of the houses had-I understand, you know, kind of thinking back on what could have been is uh-it’s a hard one to think about, but it’s just something that, you know, I’m curious about.

(34:47) Mr. Smith: I believe that you’d have a stronger-a stronger…I want to say, uhm-I just want to make sure I say it right-that the families would be stronger, uhm, there would be more I want to say togetherness, uhm, because when the families started moving from the Black identities, you know, separating, you know, and it took something away I think. And, you know, although that you know, that you have Black families now that’s living in Streamland, uh, Argyle, or Bluegrass Estates, you know, which is good, you know, I love seeing people prosper, but Urban Renewal, you know, I feel at that time took away Black our identity for families.

Ethan: Mhm.

Meghan: Kind of playing off that question, I know that the past can’t be undone, but with the project and exhibition we’re doing as a collaboration with the college and the historical society, is there anything in particular that you personally hope is accomplished by that? Or that you hope comes out of it?

(36:20) Mr. Smith: Uhm, just for our people to know our history, to know the history of Second Street, uhm, to know the history as a whole of, especially of where our Black neighborhoods were, then uh, and to look at where we are now-don’t get me wrong because we are still blessed. Families are still blessed. Neighborhoods are still blessed. Uh, but there is a missing link of togetherness, of love for each other.

Ethan: Hmm, alright um, so you were talking about uh, wanting to teach the people of this town, you know, their history and uh, and what’s been lost and then trying to kind of improve upon, uhm kind of, the education on Urban Renewal, and then, and you know Second Street. Uh, would you say uh, a lot of the uh, Black citizens of Danville are passing that knowledge down to their children, uhm, do you think that this is something that-

Mr. Smith: No.

Ethan: Mhm.

(38:05) Mr. Smith: Young people don’t understand, they do not know. But I’m not, I mean I’m not talking about, as really, I mean, not only the Black families but White families as well, you know, because people come to here to visit Danville, to visit the Constitution Square, they don’t now the history of what it was, of really of what it means. But overall, in general, you know, Blacks and Whites and so forth needs to know, what the general idea, of what the history is. You know, this has not always been here like this, you know, this at one time was the Black business district-Second Street. And as far as our young people, yes, they need to know, but most of them really don’t care. You know, I have six grandboys, four that lives here in Danville, and we try to share with them sometimes some of the history and they're like “oh okay”-(laughs) you know-

Ethan: Mhm, mhm.

Mr. Smith: That’s just their mindset.

Ethan: Mhm.

Dr. Shenton: Uh, another big theme that we’re interested in, because uh, Mr. Hughes is really interest in it, and it’s a part of the book that the Historical Society is publishing is the role of sports in creating community. And I wonder if you can talk, either if you played sports or if you uh were part of a community that was centered on sports. But how did sports play a role in community for you growing up?

(39:52) Mr. Smith: Okay, uh little league team-my father sponsored a little league team called the Braves, and we was a hard team to beat.

(Audible laughing)

Mr. Smith: Uhm, as a matter of fact, uh, one guy by the name of Marvis, was a white guy, ended up going to UK, and he ended up playing pro. Uhm, one friend of mine, Michael’s buddy, BB we often talk about- you know now they’ve got the Little League World Series-that if they did back then we would have been hard to beat.

(Audible laughing)

Mr. Smith: But when you look at some of the older teams, and I see some of the pictures of some of the older teams, you know, Mr. Davis, and you know, Mr. McCowan, and you know, who I was told uh, had uh, was one of the best pitchers around. Uh, and others, you know, that grew up. Uh, Trumbo, yeah, he’s young man, uh Trumbo, who went to UK, and was you know one of the better pitchers anywhere. And probably would have been playing pro right now if he hadn’t become ill. But uh, yeah- and you know, you think about uhm, the Coulters, uh, Coulters, you know, I grew up with the Coulter, you know, I think he was probably a senior when I was a freshman, you know, and he ended up I think playing semi-pro and teaching in Louisville, and his brother, uhm, was one of them that played football, and finished Bate.

Dr. Shenton: Mhm.

Mr. Hughes: He didn’t finish.

(41:53) Mr. Smith: Uh, okay, but uh the story is that I think he played for some pro team, and he ended up getting the ball and he went the wrong way-

(Audible laughing)

Mr. Gray: He was a Marshal.

Mr. Smith: He was a Marshal? Oh okay. Okay, Marshal, okay, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. I thought it was Coulter-yeah yeah Marshal okay (laugh). You know Bate, you know, guys that finished Bate-went to Bate-(laughs) I remember seeing the whole team-(laughs).

Mr. Gray: Wrong way Marshal.

Mr. Smith: Yeah, wrong way-see (laughs) that’s wrong (laughs)-wrong way Marsh-wrong way Marshal. I felt-you know, sport wise there has been a lot of history-(laughs) wrong way Marshal-(laughs)-he’s done messed us up now look (laughs).

Mr. Hughes: He picked the ball up-

Mr. Smith: And ran the opposite way (laughs) he scored a touchdown, he ran the whole field too (laughs). Okay (laughs).

Ethan: So, uhm, so uhm I’m from Danville, I went to Danville high school and Bate middle school. Uhm, can you uh, can you go over uhm just a little bit on kind of the-you said you moved from school to school, can you kind of go over that for me real quick uhm, and then kind of describe how, again, like how segregation and integration affected schools around town. Uhm, just kind of the kind of the general timeline and how the schools changed?

(43:38) Mr. Smith: Okay, like I said I went to Bate, the all Black Bate school, they’d have school from first to fourth grade, good memories of Mrs. Hamm, Mrs. Jones, Mrs. Burton. Uh-well I do remember him and then was Bate junior high school. Um, but I can’t really recall him, I can recall Mrs. Summers. Uh, I remember one time (laughs) walking past his office and he has somebody bent over and he hit him with a paddle and moved him and the desk. I say “ooh I don’t want any of that” (laughs).

Mr. Hughes: All of the teachers had paddles back then.

Mr. Gray: I got plenty of it myself (audible laughing).

Mr. Hughes: That was a requirement when they hired the teachers.

Mr. Smith: Mrs. Jones-

Mr. Hughes: It was a requirement that to uh, you know, that you had to be able to paddle. Some of them was hired just for the paddling.

Mr. Smith: See (laughs). Mrs. Jones, Mrs. Jones had uhm a little thing that had uh little things come out, uhm, and uhm she said give me your hand and she’d hit you with the end of it (laughs) and it was leather (laughs) I never was hit so I don’t know if it hurt or not but anyhow-(laughs).

Mr. Gray: It hurt. (Audible laughing).

Mr. Smith: I don’t know (laughs) I saw, I saw these old boys get hit by-

Mr. Gray: (Audible laughs) It hurt.

(45:27) Mr. Smith: Oh, Mikes been-(laughs) This is my experience like-In the first grade, and uh, Mrs. Margaret was the teacher, and there was this room that a, you know, had a restroom for you to go use the bathroom, well, you know, on this day Mrs. Hamm had to leave and had another lady in there that was substituting for her and when she went into the (laughs) went into the restroom, the kids went up against the door (laughs), and she was knocking saying “y’all better let me out of here!” (laughs), well, lo and behold (laughs), when I got home, they already knew about it (laughs). But anyhow we left there and went to Toliver and uhm, that’s when you know, we met and mingled with the white kid and uhm, uhm, and I became friends with several of them and like I said then was when I started playing trumpet and my friendship grew with several of the kids. And like say, the one dude, uhm, we uh, you know, we still stay in contact and so forth.

Ethan: Mhm, mhm.

(46:41) Mr. Smith: Left Toliver School and went back to then it was Bate Junior High School, uh which is where-was there, was one of the teachers. Uh, he would take us outside and burn us up in basketball. Uh, he was also a former pastor to as well. But it’s like him and Mrs. Margaret it’s the thing about it-you know, that I do recall, is that some of those teachers, some of those art teachers were members of St. James so, so mom and dad knew everything.

(Audible laughing)

Mr. Smith: Uh, going to Danville High School was uh, could as a matter of fact, our class our class of ’73 we are still yet very close, Black and White, we are very close.

Ethan: Mhm.

Mr. Smith: Uh, And I think that it was a good relationship, you know about that, that we grew up especially from Bate to Danville high school, and our class is still our class. And come next year it’ll be fifty years.

Ethan: Fifty years, wow.

(Audible laughs)

Ethan: Uhm, so you talked about music, uh, I’d like to ask you, uhm, since music seemed like a pretty big part of your life if I have that correct, is it still a pretty big part of your life?

(48:10) Mr. Smith: Yeah, I still play but I don’t play as much.

Ethan: Ah.

Mr. Smith: You know, but I still play some in the church, but I play with a group called Power Play.

Ethan: Power Play, you mentioned that.

Mr. Smith: But I’m, you know, one of the original members. I’m not playing with them now. But also, I went to Eastern through the summertime to what was, uh, Stephen Foster Music Camp, so I had the experience of two years at Eastern in the summertime, you know, wanting to get instructions from them.

Ethan: Mhm. What kind of music did you all play? Uh, like genre, did you all-what style of music did you all play, Power Play.

Mr. Smith: Back then hip-hop, anything that made you want to get up and dance (laughs).

Ethan: Mhm gotcha. Uhm, so was that group, uh, did you say that group had Black and White members?

Mr. Smith: I was the only one that was Black.

Ethan: Oh Black, okay, got it, got it.

Mr. Smith: Mhm.

Ethan: Got it, mhm.

(49:15) Mr. Smith: And we went to some places where-I know one place we went to, uh, I remember when we got there, the guy who played keyboard said Ralph-said, “on this night you stay beside me, I got my pistol” (laughs). Your car, and you know, “you need to park beside me, and if anything goes bad you follow me”, and you know, “get out of here”.

Meghan: What instrument did you play?

Mr. Smith: Trumpet and congas.

Mr. Hughes: Ralph, uhm, you want to talk about your days with Sonic Lawrence.

Mr. Smith: Yes, mhm, number eighteen, yes,

Mr. Hughes: What rank and what all did you do with them?

(50:10) Mr. Smith: Okay, uhm, I ended up being the uh, what do you call it, the worshipper master and I think you followed me, uh and I was in my twenties, probably I think at that time I was one of the youngest ,uh, worshipper masters of the large in ,uh, the state of Kentucky, uh, and I went in cause I used to see dad and then dressed up in their Black suites especially on Easter Sunday and so forth and so I wanted to become a member of the large, and I think I became a member in I think in 1977, which I was in my twenties, uh and also the uh Royal Art Masons, the Lights Templar, and also uhm became a Shrider, temple 110, uhm and I also, I uhm, I’m a 32nd degree Mason which is uh history. 

Ethan: Mhm.

Mr. Smith: And so uhm, there was a part to that I enjoy.

Mr. Hughes: You uhm, the Masonic building there it was gone-

Mr. Smith: Yeah, we used the building on right across the street from Baptist Church.

(Background: You know it was forced to be sold, you know, Urban Renewal forced-.)

Mr. Smith: Oh, okay.

Mr. Hughes: Forced them to leave there-.

Mr. Smith: To go over to the other corner. Okay, so that would have been in the early 70’s then.

Mr. Hughes: When Urban Renewal came through, they forced to sale, and they had to find somewhere else, so they went to the hall on Walnut Street.

Mr. Smith: Okay, yeah because, yeah, I do remember the large hall being, you know, where it was on Second Street.

Mr. Hughes: I wasn’t here but I was involved, I was a member and-

(52:37) Mr. Smith: Cause then I think you came after me, you came after me then, didn’t you?

Mr. Hughes: As far as master yeah.

Mr. Smith: Well, I meant as a member, yeah, yeah. And I do remember because it was like I said a fellowship, a fellowship and all, uhm, what is it, a fellowship, an oddship, what was it?

Mr. Gray: Oddfellows.

Mr. Smith: Oddfellows.

Mr. Gray: The history of the sale and everything is in the books here on how it took place. And the prices and everything.

Mr. Smith: Wow, okay.

Mr. Gray: I’m just saying that to you since you’re a minister, we have a lot of history here to explain a lot of things that happened in the past. Thanks to Michael there’s a lot here, but you’re not going to know if you don’t come see it.

(53:38) Mr. Smith: See this is why I say, you know, people need to be educated. They need to come and grasp hold of the history, because there’s so much history that we could talk about it all day long and it still wouldn’t be enough of history that has been given down through the years.

Mr. Hughes: History that was covered up, mostly covered up, and uh, there was no-that is one reason why we’re doing the book and were doing the Boyle County, African Americans in Boyle County, cause it is to explain the history, because I think there was only two publications in the state of Kentucky that even covered African American History.

Mr. Smith: Wow, that’s good. That’s good.

Dr. Shenton: So we’re at four o’clock, uhm is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you would like to get on the record, that you think we should talk about it terms of your oral history?

Mr. Smith: I can’t recall, I don’t think so. We covered a lot.

Dr. Shenton: Mhm.

Mr. Smith: We covered a lot.

Ethan: I mean uh, just since we’re wrapping it up I may ask one more question, this is kind of a broader question, and I think a question that the college is kind of asking with this project, you know, beyond what’s going on here in Danville, beyond this kind of exhibit and what’s happening at a community level, what do you think, do you think this is useful information with other places that have experienced the same thing. Do you think is going to be-do you think that this is something the world should see, uhm, do you think that this is uh, this museum, this project, these oral histories, do you think this is kind of a microcosm of a larger problem that the world is experiencing, with how histories are recorder, with how we treat histories, with how we treat people that live through the histories, uhm, what would you say about that?

(56:04) Mr. Smith: Yes, because most of our how do I say-small towns they are missing that history. And that history needs to be told. They have no idea of what we went through, of what we had to face, better yet, like I say especially when Urban Renewal came through, you know, and how people lost property and so forth and uhm, they was promised this and promised that and did not receive what they was supposed to have received. But history, you know-

Mr. Gray: That’s all we have left.

Mr. Smith: Memories.

Mr. Hughes: You think what we’ve been able to accomplish could probably work in every little town around-Harrodsburg, Springfield, they all have the same thing. You know, maybe not all of them experienced Urban Renewal, but they all have a lost history.

(57:17) Mr. Smith: Just like, you know, you think about Clifton, you know, we grew up in Clifton and, you know, and the swimming pool and projects, the rock fence-oh I’m sorry go ahead.

Mr. Gray: No, no I just wanted to add one thing, dirt we’ll never get it back, what we had, and the only thing we have now is the history and the memories and like I say all the time, I’m just in the business of preserving, but down the road, because it’s not coming back.

Mr. Hughes: I uh, a young man with good intentions, when we first started to build the history center, he stopped by, and he was talking about Second Street, he said I’m going to do whatever I can to get a loan and get money to build-and I didn’t even let him get through the whole thing, I said you can’t, you never can do that-If they gave you the money, if they cleared that whole land out and said okay we gonna-you, it still wouldn’t get it back. What it was, you never get it back. You can build the same building in the same spot, but you’ll never get it back, what was there. You’ll never get that culture back.

(58:50) Mr. Smith: No that’s it, culture, the main word is culture.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah, the culture, they destroyed the culture. And when the culture was destroyed, you see now what the results of it is, you know. People didn’t understand what was getting destroyed at the time. But once it’s gone it’s gone. You can’t bring it back. Like I said you can build and build, you can buy it, you ain’t gonna buy the park, but you could buy that park back, you could build everything that was there and open it up and you wouldn’t get it back.

(59:23) Mr. Smith: Like I said Harrodsburg, I mean, you know Broadway, that’s history.

(Background: But that’s why we do what we do and make sure-don’t get me started.)

Dr. Shenton: One thing, so you mentioned the rock fence, right?

Mr. Smith: Mhm.

Dr. Shenton: That’s something that Mr. Hughes wants to talk about a little bit and remember. Do you have any memories of the rock fence and why it was important to you and the community?

Mr. Smith: Oh yeah (laughs).

Dr. Shenton: Will you talk about that a little bit?

Mr. Gray: Behind the rock fence, behind the rock fence (audible laughing).)

(59:57) Mr. Smith: Cars come down (*pew*) (laughs) someone threw a rock at it.

Mr. Hughes: No one knows- can tell you why it actually was called the rock fence, cause that wasn’t the real name you know, and um, I mean, somewhere along the line somebody tagged it the rock fence, you know, well it was a fence and it was rock, but it didn’t, you know, didn’t nobody say okay we built this, this is the rock fence, it didn’t happen like that.

Dr. Shenton: Alright, well we’re getting this on record so where was it and what was it.

Mr. Gray: Entrance to the projects.

(1:00:31) Mr. Smith: The projects, and you know people actually sit on the rock fence and cars, you know, and you’d just have a good time sitting and watching cars pass by. But then (laughs) craziness kicked in and you’d get a rock and get behind the fence and a car would come down (*pew*) (laughs).

Mr. Hughes: The parents would put the kids on the rock fence while they’d go inside, inside the restaurant, it was the social hub, it was the Facebook of the 60’s, it really was, it was the social hub, and as you know every time we have a conversation in here it comes through, somebody talks about the rock fence.

Mr. Smith: It’s memories, it’s memories, and police hated it, police didn’t like the rock fence (laughs).

Dr. Shenton: So what about Swingland , do you remember Swingland too?

(1:01:38) Mr. Smith: It was a no no for me to go (laughs) yeah daddy told me point blank no. Swingland (laughs) and Ponderosa.

Mr. Gray: Did y’all know that my uncle told me that the ceilings weren’t much taller than this, now can you imagine Bate school had to play basketball in there-

Mr. Smith: Wow.

Mr. Gray: Shoot through the rafters, no gym, we didn’t have a gym.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah I heard that, in the early years Bate School they didn’t build a gym till 1928 I think and the school opened in 1912. And, uh, it might have been a little later. But, I’ve heard the story that they played basketball, whether it’s true or not-well I’m pretty sure.)

Dr. Shenton: Where were they playing?

Mr. Hughes: In Swingland.

Dr. Shenton: In Swingland?

Mr. Gray: In Swingland (laughs).

Mr. Smith: Wow (laughs).

Mr. Hughes: One of the stories, before the dance, they wet the floor down that you know the dust wouldn’t, you know, because people wore formal dresses and everything inside, I mean. But when you go back and look at it that’s what we had, we couldn’t go to the country club, no, we couldn’t go you know, but that’s what we had so you made it work, just like playing basketball you know, we played basketball in there because that’s what we had.

Mr. Gray: Other times we played outside.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah, and then there was a lot of, and I’m going back when you read about basketball, Black teams and all the others, cities and counties, a lot of them didn’t have basketball, they played legal games on dirt courts. You know, cause they didn’t have gyms. And then Bate played football at the bottom track meets, and I know we getting into a whole nother-but it’s all good history.

(1:03:44) Mr. Smith: It’s okay, and you know, you know you mentioned swing land and the projects, when I was coming up, you know, there was a baseball field but first it was swimming pool there and then they closed that, but after that you know they had the basketball court, the baseball field and, you know, for us coming up, and in summertime on Sunday, everybody would be down there sitting on the rock fence watching the game go on.

Mr. Hughes: It was a social hub.

Mr. Smith: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mr. Gray: My father, my father ran for-to put in a swimming pool, because a kid names, we called his Jay bird, his name was James, he drown out at Clifton, you know cause there were several you know Blacks that drowned in Clifton.

Mr. Hughes: Because that was one of the only places they had to swim. It was good, I remember yeah, I heard a story that some members went up to the court to complain because so many people had got drown swimming in the lake in Clifton. And the judge told them well we don’t have the money so we’re gonna dam off Clarks run so y’all can swim and they said Reverend Carter who was the preacher at the time spoke up and said we don’t want no damn-said the first time they’d ever heard his cuss, you know-he said we don’t want to swim in no damn creek because we want a swimming pool, you know, so, you know. And then, as good as the swimming pool was early, it turned bad, cause they didn’t take care of it, the city didn’t take care of it.

(1:05:35) Mr. Smith: Well, some kid actually climbed the fence, it was closed.

Mr. Hughes: We were sitting on the rock fence, me, Jim, Walter, we were sitting on the rock fence the day it happened. And the kid went through the fence where it already-they didn’t secure the fence and it was locked, and he went in there to get a basketball and fell and hit his head on something and Jim was the one who picked him up out of the water when we got to the pool and that’s really when they closed it all the way down.

Mr. Smith: Wow.

Dr. Shenton: What year was that?

Mr. Hughes: I want to say, I know when it was, I mean I’ve got the article on it but, it was in the 70’s, 70’s or 80’s, 76 I think it was. Yeah, it was ‘76, around that time, might have been ‘78, it’s right in that area between ‘77 or ‘78.

Mr. Smith: Lana was one of the lifeguards-okay, okay.

(Audible laughing)

Mr. Hughes: That’s something I’d never learned.

Mr. Gray: You and Margaret.

Mr. Smith: Margret? Oh lord (laughs). We’re going back some years now.

Mr. Hughes: Well, I guess we-

Dr. Shenton: Uh, anything else that we need to cover, do you think?

Mr. Smith: I think we’ve covered quite a bit.

Dr. Shenton: We did.

Mr. Smith: You know the things that we-you know, I think we did, if he’s satisfied with it and y’all are satisfied with it.

Meghan: Yeah, I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being willing to talk to us. 

Ethan: It was a pleasure speaking with you, thank you for sharing your memories.

Mr. Smith: Thank you, same here same here, thank you all.