Charles Grey - 2021

Transcript

Professor Shenton:  Okay. My name is Jeff Shenton and I'm the instructor for Anthropology 389 Lived Histories at Centre college. I'll be responsible for recording this interview. This is an interview with Mr. Charles Grey. The date today is January 26th, 2021. This interview is being conducted by telephone and recorded over a Zoom call. The interview is conducted, uh, will be scheduled to last approximately one hour and will consist of an oral history that covers Mr. Gray's life and career focusing on experiences in Danville and Boyle County, and especially on the urban renewal period in Danville and its effects on the local community. Now I'd like each of the interviewers to introduce themselves. Would you please give your name, your age, your year at Centre and where you're from?

Rachael Boule (RB): I can go first. So my name is Rachael Boule and I'm from Massachusetts. I'm 21 years old and I'm a senior at Centre college.

Marshall Taylor (MT): Um, my name is Marshall Taylor. I'm 19 years old. I'm a first year at Centre and I'm from Wheeling, West Virginia.

Gage Wells (GW): And my name is Gage Wells. I am, uh, 19 years old. I'm a freshman here at Centre and I'm from Mount Juliet, Tennessee.

Professor Shenton: I think we've just been joined by our final interviewer. Chandler, we were just, um, introducing ourselves. Could you give your name, your age, your year at Centre and where you're from

Chandler Steele (CS): Um, my name's Chandler Steel. I am, uh, 18 years old. I, um, at Centre to play basketball and, uh, yeah.

Professor Shenton: Where are you from?

CS: I'm from I'm from Murray, Kentucky

Professor Shenton: Okay. And finally I'd like Mr. Grey to introduce himself. Could you give your name, your age and where you currently reside, sir?

Charles Grey: My name is Charles Grey. I am 78 years old. I live at 177 Martin Luther King Boulevard.

Professor Shenton: Great. Okay. Now we can go ahead and begin the interview. Would one of you like to start?

RB: Sure. I can start. So, Mr. Grey, could you tell us a little bit about your early life? What was your family like? Um, where did you live? What was your neighborhood like? And things like that.

CG: Okay. Uh, I, I live, uh, this street now is Martin Luther King, but when I grew up on it, it was Green Street. And, and I, I, uh, I've been on this street all my life, all but the time I moved away, so I graduated from base school. Um, then I got married at 17. I moved to the Projects. Um, I worked in Danville at Parks-Belk. I went then I got a job at the state hospital. I started out at Parks-Belk making $30 a week, working six days a week. And I ended up at the state hospital and I only got up to $50 a week. So, I moved from Danville in 1965 and started working at Square D in Lexington. My first paycheck was $277 for one week's work. So I, when I left Danville, well, I didn't look back. And the reason why I'm back here now, my mom left me the house. And, um, so I'm retired and I'm widowed twice. And so this is why I'm back in Danville. Otherwise, I would never come back to Danville.

MT: Why was the pay so much higher in, uh, you said Louisville(?), than it is in Danville, was in Danville?

CG: In Lexington.

MT: Lexington, sorry.

CG: Um, when I was in Danville, they had a few factories and at the time they only hired one Black. He was the representative of the Black race and I tried everywhere and they already had their one Black, so I couldn't get the job making the good money. So I moved to Lexington. I moved to Nicholasville, but I worked in Lexington.

RB: So what does you having been widowed twice have to do with you moving back to Danville?

CG: Would you repeat that please?

RB: Sure. So you said that if it weren't for you being widowed twice, you wouldn't have moved back to Danville. And I was just wondering why?

CG: Oh, well, my, my, uh, my last wife, we both moved here because my mom left me the house and we renovated it. And so she passed about six years ago and, uh, I'm still here. So the reason I moved back was to have a house and, um, we didn't purchase one where we lived in, uh, in Georgetown. So we were spending money here and then renovated. And this is where we stayed for right about 20 years.

MT: What was Danville like when you were a kid growing up here?

CG: Well, would you specify what you want to know?

MT: Just more of how the community was structured and how it felt like as a group, I guess, how your connections were?

CG: We knew our limitations. We stayed in our community. We made the best of the situation. We didn't realize what we didn't have because we wasn't exposed to a better life. So we just made it the best of what ya had. And sometime we didn't know what we didn't have because we didn't see what other people had unless you worked in a home. And, uh, but you didn't get to, you didn't get to see things like we needed to see. And you didn't know how to prepare for a better life because you didn't see no better life here. What, what do you go to school for? Wasn’t nothing here. So few, a few people went to college and they did well, but most people never went to college. And I think it's the same today.

CS: Um, uh, so you said, uh, you moved from Danville to Nicholasville, but you, uh, Nicholasville, but you worked in Lexington?

CG: That’s correct.

CS: Uh, could you describe how the transition was to go from Danville, which isn't very big to Lexington?

CG: Well, It wasn't too bad. I mean, it wasn't that bad. We was, I was still Black and Lexington had its limitations and says, well, it was a systemic thing that, you know, Black people only could go so far. So it wasn't that much better and less than you couldn't integrate a lot of things at that time in Lexington. So it wasn't a lot of difference. It's just more money to be made.

RB: Yeah. So, sorry, just to clarify, you're back in Danville now?

CG: Yes. Correct.

GW: So, um, how was your, uh, personal experience with, uh, school growing up?

CG:  When I was in the, in, in, in the all Black school, I did well, I was a good athlete. Um, I could have done better academically, but I didn't. And I paid the price for that. So, I can't blame anybody for that, but as far as an opportunity, uh, just for a common person to work and make good money, it wasn't here. But, uh, some of it, you know, I brought on myself because I didn't apply myself, for skill, but at the time I didn't know what skill was because I didn't know what you could do anywhere.

GW: What, uh, what sports did you play?

CG: I was basketball, uh, made the all-district team two years, all regional team. I was the first Black to make the regional team at that time. Um, and I played some football. I was basically just out there. I was too small, so, but I was the center. I was the center and I could get away with that, but my, my game was basketball. I will tell you this. Uh, I don't know if you all know, um, our, uh, Pittsburgh Steeler, a quarterback named Joe Gilliam. Uh, his father, his father was my coach in high school.

RB: Cool.

MT: Uh, How did you see, uh, segregation and racism in school? Did you feel it at all growing up or still you just didn't realize it?

CG: Well, it wasn't no, uh, what segregation, it didn't bother me because I didn't know. I knew, I knew I couldn't go to the white school. So again, like I say, you just have to make the best of where, where are you at but I, I knew we didn't have what they had and in order to compete, if you're not exposed to it, you can't do it. But then when I went to Lexington and got different jobs in the factory, I found that I could do a lot, but I didn't know it even existed. So being in Danville, uh, I, it prepared me for some things, but it just, wasn't nothing here for me. I, for most Blacks, you just couldn't make no money. And if you couldn't make money, you didn't have money to take care of your kids properly. And so when I went to Lexington, I was able to put both of my kids in college, uh, one, went three years at Western and the other one got her Master's at Western. And so I put my inadequacies into my children. So I tried to see them through more than what I had

MT: What did the African-Americans that did stay in Danville, what did they do for jobs to get by?

CG: Well, when I left, um, let me see, a lot of them was farm workers. And I really can't say because we worked at. . . most of us worked in hospitals and the state hospital hired a bunch, uh, day laborers. Um, and again, I can't remember a lot, but it wasn't a lot offered. I do remember. I would tell you this. I remember when I needed a car and I, it was a ‘55 Oldsmobile for sale for $250. And I couldn't borrow $250 here in Danville from nowhere. That's how bad it was.

RB: So when you say there was nowhere, is that because these Black businesses were moved or because there just weren't many to begin with?

CG: Well, they had, they had, Oh yeah, I forgot. They had what they call The Laundry, the Danville Laundry, and the mayor of the laundry owned that company. And he, for years kept industry out so he could keep people working for him. So that was one reason why industry wasn't in Danville. And so that went on for years. I mean, and then you had the put, they call it the redrier where they processed the backer [tobacco], a lot of Blacks work there. Um, But it just wasn't, wasn't enough. Wasn't an opportunity here to do anything.

RB: Right. So it wasn't because they were removed. It's just because there weren't any to begin with?

CG:  Well, most, mostly there wasn't nothing here and people, they really wanted some, they moved, then they went somewhere else.

CS: Did anybody you knew or any of your friends, uh, go to college instead of like trying to get jobs in the factory?

CG: Oh yeah. Um, well, I don't know whether y'all met Glenn Ball. He's uh, he's on the educational board. He was my classmate. And, um, then there was a lady named Betty Sue Griffin. She was a year under me and it was several more that whose parents, lot of ‘em parents work for, uh, white people and the white people help send them to school. So that's how a lot of them got to go.

MT: What were your aspirations going up through school? Did you plan to go on college or have hopes to go into college?

CG: No, like I say, that part is my fault. I didn't apply myself for college. I know, uh, I didn't have no aspiration. I, I messed up and had to get married. And from then on, it was just, you know, survival, but I I'm not blaming Danville for that. It's just something I did to myself.

GW: How do you think, uh, your childhood growing up in school would have been different? If the, uh, the whites white school and Black school were just combined into one school?

CG: He would've been fine if, if they, if they had accepted us, but a lot of times at that time, uh, my equality took care of somebody else's privilege. And, uh, so I couldn't excel if it, if I had to go through something that somebody else wanted. So I'm saying that I don't know, because I never got exposed to integration in the schools. I don't know. You know, when, when the integration started, I had a chance to go to Danville High School, the white school, but I was in the 10th grade, 11th grade, and I chose to stay where I was. But anyway, um, most of the ones we went to down high school, they did a little better than the ones that didn't, back in that time. But again, it's hell of a personal thing that once you got exposed to what you could do, they saw more about life than what we did at the Black school. They saw what opportunities they could have once they got in those schools.

RB: So how has the culture of Danville changed from when you were younger to now, since you have moved back?

CG: Um, I, I kinda wish that, I kinda wish that the other of people had more exposure to the Black culture because we had people in the schools and in the community to try to help us do better. And I'm trying to, now, now I'm seeing now that there's a few doing well, but if you don't play football or basketball as a, as a Black male in Danville, you set to fall through the cracks. And then if you're not careful, you play up the eligibility and you finish. But prior to that, they, they give you everything. And then you get complacent thinking you ain't got to study, you don't have to do nothing. You going to be all right. And then when you get to be a junior or senior and you don't have good grades, and you're not really good enough to go to college as a superstar, then you just out there. And I think a lot of that going on today that I ain't going to say it wouldn't have happened back then, but it's just a lot of it going on now that I don't, I don't particularly like to see.

RB: Do you think that stems from a lack of resources, lack of, um, tenacity or where do you think that stems from?

CG: We're part of it.

RB: The not doing as well in the academics and not really having aspirations, um, and having to depend solely on sports to move forward.

CG: Well, what happens is they start in little league, especially a kid that thinks is pretty good, has good potential and they'll baby him, they’ll pamper him. And he doesn't exceed in academics, but then you got a lot of other kids think they can do like that kid, or like they see going through the pros and things and they do not get into studies. We think the basketball is going to carry them, or the football is going to carry them. And I see a lot of these, young, especially boys falling in that crack. And next thing you know, they're nothing.

RB: So they're putting all their eggs in one basket.

CG: Yeah.

RB: Right.

CG: Okay.

LookUp: Do you have any ideas on what a possible solution could be to the problem? Have you thought about that? A lot.

CG: I think more tutoring, more help for those kids early, early, and, and, and people taking interest in them and trying to lead them in the right direction, as far as education, because one thing a Black guy can do for white people. They love, they love our entertainment, but they don't like education. If you educated, they don't care much for you, but they like for you to entertain them. And that's what I, that's what our young Black people need to understand. You need to get something that's going to be sustainable, but they like to watch you play the football for the schools and all that. But when it comes time to pay you a decent service, they don't want to do that. And I'm talking about today.

RB: So you would say it's a systemic issue.

CG: That's right. All across the board and not just Danville, not just Danville.

RB: Right. Um, Chandler, did you have a question that you wanted to ask him?

CS: I was just gonna say that. So what you were saying was basically the people that are in their corner when they see their talent, uh, basically just pamper them to say the only way out is sports and that you don't need an education if you can get a full ride for sports.

CG: They don't say it. They don't say it, but what the kid will do is anything he wants. They provided for him. They even give him passing grades, but he ain't doing it. He's not, he's not doing the work. And then when it come time for payday, he don't even graduate from high school a lot of time. And what I think should happen is it's left up to the people that's in charge of academics and that's not Black people, the white teachers, the white principals, the white community should take more interest in what's going on. And, you know, that sounds like, I'm trying to pass the buck, but sometimes this system is hurting people. And they, they don't, the kids just don't get what they need to do to survive in this, in this, uh, new world anyway.

RB: Right. So when you talk about the system, are you talking about, um, kind of government as a whole more specifically, um, educational, um, systems?

CG: Everything.

RB: Everything, just overarching.

CG: Everything. The systemic racial inequality. I think the, the, uh, schools and everybody ought to look into it and see what they can do to help. I can't say what they can do cause I, I didn't get it myself.

CS: Um, what do you think most of the kids that are having to drop out and kind of being thrown into the world just to survive? Like you, you did, what do you think they're doing to find their way? Or what do you think they end up?

CG: Selling dope.

RB: You think that's more specifically in Danville or like it's more prone in Danville or did you see it as well in Lexington or. . .

CG: It's it's, it's everywhere. It's not just Danville

RB: Yeah, I know it’s everywhere, but, um, I didn't know if you saw that same pattern from moving around.

CG: Yeah. See, I've lived in Lexington. I lived in Cincinnati. I lived in Georgetown. I lived in, uh, Nicholasville. Yeah. I saw it everywhere.

RB: Wow.

CS: Was it better in some places than it was in others?

CG: No.

RB: And you still see, or I guess you're not at those places. Um, now never mind. But how do you think we could, uh, work towards fixing that, that does that go back to, um, support? Um, like within the system?

CG: But like I said, be more conscious of, you know, if, if a child’s parents’ is not making a decent salary, they can’t compete. And they come to work. They, they, they come to school inferior and then they get an attitude and it's just on and on and on. And it's, it's not, it's not, it's a lot happens before they even get to school and they form this opinion that I'm not good enough, but I'm going to show them something and they end up, if they can't play football or basketball, some of them would do well. But I just hate to see all the athletes and maybe out of the whole group, you got one that goes somewhere and do something. And again, I can't say for sure, because I'm not into it, like I used to be, but I just think that the system is going to have to put a little more interest in the kids. And I'm talking about poverty whether Black kids, white kids, it doesn't matter.

CS: Do you think, uh, kind of the kids that are either struggling or in poverty and like whether it's the school system or their coach, like the coaches or something, uh, if they could like see that and give these kids a mentor, that's more focused on life and education than sports. Do you think that could help keep kids off the street and be successful?

CG: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then, uh, some people in the community could set up programs to help kids and show them how, to show them the way out. Yeah, absolutely. When I see, uh, LeBron James, and all these people are doing in these other communities, all communities need that.

MT:  So in your opinion, the Danville community is still far off from being anywhere near where it needs to end up.

CG:  Well, it ain't just Danville. It's everywhere. I'm not going to run Danville down and make it sound worse than other places. It's everywhere when they say it's still endemic. And when I said that means it's everywhere. This is America.

GW: Um, how has, uh, uh, Danville changed? Like physically like the buildings and all that in your lifetime and what, like certain places do you miss?

RB: Businesses as well.

CG: I didn't understand your question, sir.

GW: Um, it was just like, uh, how has Danville and just the recent years that you've been here and growing up, how has the city changed physically? Like certain buildings that aren't there, uh, monument or sculptures or anything. How has that, uh, changed?

CG: Well, we, we had, uh, a section of town that we call Second Street and the Constitution Square is there now. They, they urban renewal wiped all that out and we don't have any place to call our own, which what I said our community, we don't have that anymore. And so consequently, we just divided, we are divided as a people. Um, and so I do remember the Kentucky Theater, but the cinema took all of that. It's a lot of stores, you know, that of course,  men's clothes, there’s no place here to buy men's clothes anymore, I don't think. So, it's changed a lot. And I don't know, I ain't going to say it's for the better or the worse, I don't know, but it’s changed a lot.

MT: Can you tell us anything else about Second Street or the feeling you got from being there? Like what happened there when you were young?

CG: Oh yeah. It's it was our training, that was our training ground. There was a lot of people there, there was alcoholics and there was everything, but they, they took interest in the young men. And, and if you, if they thought you, uh, should do better, they would tell you and they would make sure that they tried to help you. And I'm talking about the ones that had made the mistakes in life, but, uh, you know, there was the pool hall. You could sit around and see what you like to be and what you didn't want to be. Um, you learned some good habits, but you learn some bad ones too. Um, but, uh, Second Street, it was the training ground for boys in town.

RB: What do you mean by training grounds?

CG: Well, life experiences, learn how to shoot pool, learning, uh, talking to grownups. It was the hangout for Black people. Uh, that's where the rest of us was. Um, the barbershops was there. Um, so when I say training ground, it was the place we hung out at. And you, you learned a lot about everything.

RB: So now that that area's gone, kind of their training ground, I know you said there's not really a place anymore for y'all to collect as a community, but, do you think there's been a new training ground that's been created? Or do you think that culture has just been lost?

CG:  Well they got the barbershops you know, like people hang out at the barber shop and again, I done got too old to be running out there in the streets. I don't know what's going on. Like I used to, but I don't, I, I can't speak for today. I really can't.

MT: These old men that you're talking about that would kind of tutor the young men, do you think that's a translation of what today's kids are missing?

CG: Yeah, some of it, yes. And, and yes, because a lot of them were, they were good athletes and, and they, they would help you a lot. I mean, just by talking to you and tell you some things, uh, yeah. Now, whether you listened to them or not, at least they tried. And I can remember a lot of instances where some guys really helped me and, you know, telling you, you need to straighten up, you don't want to go to prison. And I knew he just got out and he told me what went on in prison. And there's some other guys would tell you about economics. One Oh one, elderly man told us once it, you know, said he was telling this guy said that that car is not yours. I said, what do you mean, it's not mine? He said, you miss a payment, you dismiss the payment, you see whose car it is. So I, I learned that until you pay for something, it's not yours. ‘Til you have the deeds, it's not yours. ‘Til you have the title, it's not yours. If you renting, it's not yours.

RB: So you don't think that, um, so you think you would learn. Um, so some say that, um, a lot of learning happens at home, kind of at the dinner table, just having a conversation with the family. And, um, that kind of makes me think of what you're saying right now. The men, um, tutoring, the younger men just in life and having those conversations. So do you think that, um, they could carry these conversations at home? Or do you think that they were trying to find these conversations elsewhere because they weren't being had at home?

CG:  No. Well, as you know, sometimes as a young people, we don't pay attention to what your parents say. How am I talking? Do y'all hear me? Y'all hear me. Y'all don't hate what I'm saying is young people don't listen a lot of times what the parents are saying.

RB: Yeah

CG: But they do listen to what other people say, I don't think that's changed a lot when parents try to tell you things and you don't want to hear it.

RB: Yes and. . ..

CG: And I don’t think it’s changed a lot.

RB: Oh, I’m sorry, what did you just say?

CG: I said, I don’t think it’s changed a lot. When parents try to tell you things and you don’t want to hear it.

Unknown: I agree.

RB: Right. And also the people you gave about talking to the guy who just got out of prison. And so it was kind of coming right from the source. Like, don't go to prison, straighten up. So it's like that kind of. . . 

CG: Right. Right.

RB: That's cool. That's very interesting.

MT:  Where was the most popular place to hang out when you were a kid at Second Street,

CG: Pool Room, Barbershop,

CS: Do you think that’s where you learned your most important, like life lessons as a young kid?

CG: Yeah. There, there and, uh, then I had, uh, I had a school teacher that really took interest in you. You know, I was one of them kids that I got whipped every day there for awhile, every day in front of other kids, you know, and, and my principal, he, uh, he was trying to help me. And then, uh, I think, um, I don't know exactly when it was, but he, I was living in Nicholasville and he came by with his wife and he stayed with me for a long time. And he said, I just wanted to see how you're doing, as an adult. I wanted to just see how you're doing. That meant a lot to me. And then he, uh, another guy, an older man saw him at my house. And, uh, well then my principal asked me, he said, where does, uh, where does, um, uh, his name was Smith. I can't think that it's, uh, it was J.W. Smith's father. And he, uh, J.W. run a funeral home here in Danville, Morton Smith. He said, where does Morton Smith live? And I said, he lives right up the street there. And he sat there on the porch. So he goes up and talks to Mr. Morton. And so maybe sometime during that week, I went up and talked to Mr. Morton. And I said, I am interested in buying a home, but I need to get involved in the, in the Building and Loan. And he told me, he said, I will help you. He said, anybody that Bob Summers come and see has got to be all right. So I just want to say that some people that are trying to help you. You can't get angry at him and get to the point where you don't want to speak to him, and I hate you, and all that, he did me more good than a whole lot of men, a whole lot of people, including my parents, by taking interest in me, even though he whipped me every day. And I'm talking about, I ain't talking about no pat on the back either, but that's just something I went through. And then I finally got straightened out and I started doing better. But again, there's a lot of stuff I shouldn't have done that I did.

RB: So is that the kind of discipline that you're saying is not here today, anymore? Like that guidance that your teacher showed you?

CG: I'm not saying it's not here, but I'm going to say it's not enough of it here.

RB: Gotcha, well put.

MT: Can you tell us a little bit about the story of when Urban Renewal started and when buildings on Second Street and other areas started to get torn down or renovated?

CG: Well, I would, I knew this question was coming and I understand what Urban Renewal was doing and why they did it, but how they did it was criminal. I think that they wanted to get rid of the eyesores, but in the same breath, they wouldn't loan you the money to, to fix the eye sores. because they, uh, would say that the property ain't worth the money you asked them to fix it up. And then again, I don't know how many, the houses and the buildings and things was owned by white people. And again, like I said, a while ago, if you ain't got the paperwork on it, it's not yours. As soon as the people want to sell it out, you just got to move. And again, I don't know how much of the properties was, um, owned by Black people. Now, Urban Renewal, it cleaned up Danville, but the way they did it and the people, once they got the place cleaned off, you couldn't go back and buy nothing to build nothing. Why? Because you're not making the money. If you don't make money, you can't, you can't do much.

RB: So it was kind of damned if you do damned if you don't kind of situation, because there weren't many opportunities offered for African-Americans in Danville. And then again, you could only have a life there if you had money.

CG: Yeah. And see like, with me living here, in this house I live in, I would say it's worth 50,000 or less, but I don't have to pay rent.

RB: Oh, because your mom, it was your mom's house.

CG: It's was my mom's house. But now if, if this house don't come up to Danville standard and they give me $50,000, what am I going to do with that?

CS: Nothing now, ‘cause the house. ..

CG: It’s not enough money to do nothing with.

MT: Exactly.

CG: But it’s alright. It's good enough for me to live in the rest of my life.

RB: So. . .

CG: I got hardwood floors. I got crown molding. I got everything in this house, but it's still not worth nothing because of the location. So that's just something that we have to deal with. If Danville decides they want to come through Martin Luther King, put something in there, I'm out in the cold.

MT: Do you think that's very fair? Probably going to guess that you don't

CG: No, it's not fair. If you want to take my house and put me at something equally equivalent, uh, something, you know, that that would be fair. But you know, at my age, I'm on fixed income. My income don't change. It's the same every month. And a lot of people that got caught up in there was in the same shape I'm in.

RB So were you worried about that happening, you losing your house to Danville?

CG: Pardon?

RB: Are you worried about that happening, losing your house to Danville?

CG: I know I'm not worried about it, but if it happens, it happens, but I'm not worried about it. Um, but you know, one thing that that does happen, you're not prepared for anything. Nobody tells you anything about what's going on. And next thing you know, Danville community, or the government or somebody decided that, this property has got to go to where we want it to go. I don't know who negotiates. Or who, I don't know, but the people involved, they don't, they don't see it coming. And then next thing you know, they tell you that you got to take this money. So we've already made the decision. It's got to go.

CS: Uh, those businesses affected by that. Do you know if they, uh, got out of Danville and continued their business or did they just have to transition to something else inside of Danville?

CG: Most of the time, it wasn't about a business. It was homes.

MT: Oh, did you know anybody that got their home taken from them during this time?

CG: The mere fact of where Centre College is took a whole lot of homes. Part partly the new over there where the tennis court is and all up in there. That's part of it.

RB:  What was, yeah. So what was, um, center colleges? Um, part in Urban Renewal. So they wiped out a lot of homes to put in their athletic facilities.

CG: Yes. Well, go ahead. I'm sorry.

RB: No, you're good. I was just wondering how the community reacted to that.

CG: Oh, we didn’t like it, but ain't nothing you can do about it. You can't fight the system. If you don't have the backing, we still don't like it

RB:  Really. You don't think that center college opened up more opportunities for those to get an education?

CG: I don't know, but that ain't happened. The people that had the struggle who lost their homes.

RB: Right.  Right. So you guys didn't get a say in it and didn't benefit from it.

CG: No, we didn't benefit from it.

RB: Right.

MT: Where did Most of the people go that got removed from their houses. If they didn't give them anything nicer to move into, where did they move?

CG: The housing projects.

MT: And where's that?

CG: Down on South Second Street. And then a lot of them was elderly. And you know, they know most done died out now, but some of them could tell you more about, you know, the ones that lived in that area where it happened. They could tell you exactly what happened and what they was told. And how they was manipulated and everything, I wasn't in Danville at that time,

RB: You weren't in Danville when people were getting, um, forced out of their homes.

CG: Okay. I didn't hear you. I couldn't hear you.

RB: Alright. You weren't in Danville when people were getting forced out of their homes.

CG: Right.

RB: Okay. So was it very different?

CG: I heard about it, I heard about it.

RB: Did that make that very different for when you came back?

CG: Okay. Say it again.

RB: Uh, so since you weren't here, um, during, uh, some of the renewal, did that make it that much more different when you came back to Danville when you moved back from Lexington?

CG: Well, yeah. Yeah. Um, I remember a lot of places. It used to be, businesses is not business. They change hands and it's a lot different now. Um, it's a lot different, yeah.

RB: So lack of businesses that you remember being there?

CG: Yeah. But you know, like, uh, the rest of, we had to go to the back door to get our food, uh it's, it's something else now. But, uh, then you know, you got the, the new Cheddars and all this, they took the place of lot of those places. That's different. And now that, now you can go in those places and sit down and eat like there for leave. From when I was here, we had to go to the back door and get our food. We couldn't go in, sit down in the, in the, in the first, the part of the restaurant. And then when you went to the, uh, Kentucky Theater to see a movie, you had to go up in the balcony and there was no restroom. If you had to go to the bathroom, you had to walk from the middle of main street all the way down to Second Street and use the restroom. And then a lot of people use cups, but then they got carried over. Then you have to deal with the smell and stuff and it was terrible. But then you get a name that you nasty and then people is nasty. Well, you know, you try to wash a little bit. If you got to leave the movie and walk back half a block, when you come back to the movie, you done missed a lot. Still. You get labeled of not being clean and all this. And that was, that was terrible.

MT: What was your experience like with integration? Not only in Danville, but throughout your travels, was it easier in some places and it wasn't others?

CG: Well, I have to say, and I've never been called a name. I've never been discriminated to my face. I've never experienced any of that. I never been denied anything myself. So my experience might be a little different than somebody else's, but I have to, I can't say that I've never had an experience of racism, but since you know, the system, systematic racism, I have to deal with that. But personal racism, I haven't dealt with that.

MT: Did you have any friends that were?

CG: I don't to my knowledge, I don't know any, they, you know, they, they tell stories. Uh, but I don't know any per se that I saw it happening and all of this. I don't know.

CS: So do you think, um, that lack of like witnessing firsthand, uh, racism could be difficult to, uh, help somebody cope that experienced that firsthand?

CG: Well, yes. Yes, but I'm not one to say don't, don't worry about it. Don't pay no attention to it. I understand it. Even though I haven't experienced it myself, I don't understand. And I will not ever tell anybody to be patient and do this and do that. But in the next breath, you gotta deal with it to your best advantage. You gotta learn the system and learn the value of a dollar. Because if I've got plenty of dollars in my pocket, you can't tell me nothing. I don't care what you call me. I'm all right. So when I ain't got nothing and you're going to talk to me bad, then you got a problem. So I'm talking, I'm talking about, we have to, as a people, start looking out for ourselves and not depend on somebody else to look out for your best interests. That's what I tell my kids. Don't worry about what other people think you get your act together because I look back and we, as a people, we've been talking about this for 400 years- injustice, 400 years. And we're still talking about it.

CS: Do you have any ideas on how we can, um, together, uh, try to solve this problem of systemic issues?

CG: Well, I say since I'm talking to younger people, that's what y'all got to figure out.

CS: I agree.

RB: I agree as well.

CG: Y'all see it. Y'all see what's going on today. It's a lot different than when I came along. It's a lot of things going on now. It's not the same, but it's basically the same system. It's y'all's fight now. And that's the only reason why I agreed to take this, uh, survey just for you all to take care of this problem.

RB: Well, we’re working. . .

CG: What's happened is happening.

Professor Shenton: Mr. Grey. We're coming up on an hour into our call. Now, I'm just wondering before we let you go, if there's anything that you haven't talked about or anything that you wanted to to get on the record before we, we let you go.

CG: Yeah. I, all I want to say is that I want to thank you for this interview. I don't know. I don't have anything else. I think I should have said, but I do want to say this, that I gave you the interview, but forget what happened to us back in the day, it's left up to Centre College - you instructors, you students to make things better. I ain't got long to be here, but I know I ain't got long enough to live, to see things change every, every year, every day you hear about something going on, police shootings, everything been going on for years. So it's for you all to figure out.

RB: That’s a lot of pressure.

CG: Pardon?

RB: I was just making a joke. I said, that's a lot of pressure.

CG: Well, I know, but sometime we gotta follow up on what we have to do. That's what you put here for.

RB: Right. I agree.

Professor Shenton: Thank you for that, Mr. Grey. Um, were there any final follow-up questions from any of the interviewers or any clarifications on anything that you heard that you wanted to ask before we let Mr. Grey go.

CG: Well let me. . .Oh, okay. I'm sorry. No,

Professor Shenton: Go ahead. Go ahead.

CG: No, I'm sorry. Go ahead. I want to hear what they got to say. I, I think I might have done talked enough.

RB: No, I personally don't have any more questions.

MT: I'm good too.

CS: Me too. I think we all are.

CG: Do I hear one African-American in the, in the group?

RB: You do not do not.

CG: That's a problem.

RB: Yeah.

CG: That's a problem.

Professor Shenton: All right. Well, we want to thank you Mr. Grey, for all of your, your insight and your stories today. Um, if there's nothing else and you're, you're free to say anything else that you would like, but if not, then, um, you're, we're free. We're happy to let you go at this point.

CG: Well, thank you all.

RB: Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

RB: Bye-bye.