Martha Grey

Transcript

JS: Alright my name is Jeff Shenton and I’m the instructor for Anthropology 389- Lived Histories at Centre College. I’ll be responsible for recording this interview. This is an interview of Ms. Martha Grey. Today’s date. . .

MG: Yes.

JS: The date is January 25th, 2021. The interview is being conducted by telephone and recorded over a Zoom call. The interview is scheduled to last approximately one hour. It will consist of an oral history that covers Ms. Grey’s life and career, focusing on experiences in Danville and Boyle County, and especially on the Urban Renewal period in Danville and its effects on the local community. Now I’d like each of the student interviewers to introduce themselves. If you could please give your name, your age, your year at Centre College, and where you’re from.

SS: Um hi, my name’s Shelby Smith, I am a freshman at Centre College and I’m from Columbia, Kentucky.

CC: Um, I’m Chase Cavanaugh, I’m 22, senior at Centre College, and I’m from Louisville, Kentucky.

WR: My name is Will Reynolds, I’m 18, I’m a freshman at Centre, and I’m from Bowling Green, Kentucky.

JS: Thanks, finally I would like Ms. Grey to introduce herself. Could you please give your age, your name, and where you currently reside?

MG: My name is Martha Grey and I am 93 years old and I live at 459 South Third Street here in Danville.

JS: Wonderful. Thank you so much and now we will go ahead and start the interview Ms. Grey.

MG: Alright.

SS: Hey Ms. Grey, how are you?

MG: I’m fine, how are you?

SS: I’m good, it’s Shelby talking right now. If you don’t mind for me to start out and ask how your day has been?

MG: How’s my day been?

SS: Yes.

MG: Yes, it’s been fine so far, ha ha ha!

SS: Is it raining up in Danville? It’s raining where I’m at.

MG: Oh yes. Yes, it’s raining.

SS: So are you staying in today?

MG: Do what, oh yes, I’ve been staying in anyways, but uh yes I am in today.

SS: Of course. Alright, and then can I ask you just a few questions, kinda like some personal history questions to start it off?

MG: Okay.

SS: Alright, what was your family like?

MG: I had a. . a nice family, a big family. It was nine of us.

SS: You had nine siblings?!

MG: Nine siblings, and um, right now I’m the only one living.

SS: How many brothers and sisters did you have, like how many brothers were there and how many sisters were there?

MG: I had four brothers and there were five girls.

SS: Okay, and where did you live and what was your neighborhood like?

MG: I lived um on Shirley Lane in Danville. It’s a-it was a little alley between Lexington Avenue and Broadway, that’s where I lived. It was only one house and the name of it was Shirley Lane.

SS: So did you have any neighbors that you would like hang out with growing up as a kid or was it just you and your siblings?

MG: It was uh, it was neighbors, but I lived in a white neighborhood.

SS: Okay, and what did you spend time doing as a child?

MG: Oh, just the usual things. Just playing around. . in the neighborhood. I mean you know, as a child, I mean, we didn’t go anywhere much.

SS: Mhmm, and then what did you think about your community when you were young?

MG: It was nice, we didn’t have any problems or anything. Everyone went along fine. I lived in a white neighborhood all my life.

SS: Mhmm.

MG: And everyone got along fine, just fine.

SS: Alright and then I’m gonna fast forward a little bit, how was your experience in school?

MG: Well I- it was fine because I went to a all Black school and um . . it was fine. I had good teachers, it started out um just a small school and then it was high school. But um, it was nice.

SS: So did you enjoy school as a kid?

MG: Oh yes, oh yes.

SS: And then, um how was your experience with work? Did you work as you were growing up?

MG: Uh. . after I got old in my teens uh I worked around the neighborhood for the people that lived there. I uh, would go and help them you know.

SS: What kind of stuff would you do for ‘em?

MG: Well I would, a lot of the time I was supposed to be uh babysitting, but we all played together we was all together all the time anyways so I was just there. With the small children, just all uh neighborhoods where I was just. . we was the only Black family there.

SS: Mhmm, so it didn’t even feel like work to you, did it?

MG: No, it didn’t. But I was a teenager then and you know.

SS: Yeah, and what were your aspirations as a young person, like what did you want to do with your life?

MG: Well I always wanted to be a nurse.

SS: Mhmm.

MG: But I didn’t, I couldn’t be a nurse, I can’t.

SS: Was it popular for people to be a nurse?

MG: Well no, it was just something I wanted to do. I always liked to always be around taking care of people cause that’s all we did was take care of each other. And I liked to, you know, do things like that.

SS: Alright and then tell us about your working career, what jobs have you held and how did you get them?

MG: Well I worked in a private home for forty years. . . and um. . I uh. [voice in background, unintelligible]. Uh, I took care of the children when people went on vacations and things and I would stay at the house with the children and things like that. That was- that was my career, I always liked to be around children. And I’ve raised, in the household, raised the kids until they graduated and most of them graduated from Centre College. And um, that was my career ha ha.

SS: So, would you say that was your favorite job?

MG: That was my job yes, mhmm. That was all of them.

SS: What was your experience with coworkers and bosses in your life?

MG: Fine, I’ve- I always got along with everybody. I never just. . I never had a problem with anyone.

SS: Alright, and then Will or Chase do you all want to take over after that?

MG: Do what?

SS: I was just asking if one of my partners want to ask you some questions now.

MG: Mhmm.

WR: Uh yeah I can take over for her -a second. Hi, uh this is Will talking now, how are you doing?

MG: Yes, fine.

WR: Um, so just some questions about community through your life. Has Danville changed physically in your lifetime?

MG: Oh yes.

WR: So how has it changed?

MG: Well it's um. . . the building of the streets, neighborhoods, and just a whole lot. It’s changed and all the Second Street there where was a Black neighborhood up in there and all that's gone. It’s changed a lot, where Constitution Square is, all that used to be Black businesses and things up there, and all of that's changed. It’s changed a whole lot.

WR: Um, so like what- what particular places, so like homes, neighborhoods, businesses, um that aren’t here anymore do you miss?

MG: That has changed?

WR: Like, yes like, these- these places that are no longer here, um like which one of these places do you miss the most?

MG: . . . Well I-I don’t get you. A lot of they- they did streets over. Cause the street that I’m living on now they did it all then built uh Urban Renewal built new houses and things and tore old houses down. And then as I say on Second Street all of that was all tore down and made constitution square and it just that's the only thing I can tell you about that. And it’s a lot of the places on Seventh Street and different streets around they did ‘em all over, new houses and things around.

WR: Okay, um, compared to like when you were growing up, uh does Danville feel like a different place just based on people who live here?

MG: Oh yeah, it’s different. It’s a lot different because a lot of the places that Black people used to have that they could go all that’s gone. Uh, it’s a lot different but it’s been so long nobody pays attention to it anymore.

WR: Yeah uh do you- do you recall like when it kind of started to change?

MG: Oh yeah, mhmm yeah, it was uh . . . [MH in background – early 70s] probably in the early 70s or somewhere like that. Uh, uh I just really can't, my mind don’t go back that far. I can’t . . . but it was somewhere around that time.

WR: Okay, how do you feel about Danville like as a place to live today compared to when you were younger?

MG: Well it’s fine. Now when I was younger where I lived at I mean it was nice. I-I was in a white neighborhood and the only time I was uh out of the neighborhood, but we all got along just fine. And I never did experience anything you know. But now where I live now, I live here on South Third Street and um I’ve lived here for quite a while, about 50 years or longer. And um, it's nice. I have uh, Urban Renewal come and did this street over and I’m- I’m in a Urban Renewal house. They tore my houses down, I had two and they tore down and built me one house. Which uh, you know which that was my house I didn’t have to pay for it cause they tore my houses down and they built me another house. So I’ve-I’ve had a good life.

CC: How did you end up growing up in a white neighborhood?

MG: Well that was where my grandmother's house was. I mean my mother and father moved here from Mayesville, Kentucky and they come and they would live with her mother. Her mother was already moved here with some people, and they, she had purchased a place. And um, it was between Lexington Avenue and Broadway, . . and um we lived there. . in fact we still own the property there. Uh, it was just we had to tear the house down, but I-we still own property there. . . and we got along just fine. . . It used to be a school up there it-they used to call it old Broadway School, and um it burnt. My father was out in the garden working and he just happened to look up and see smoke and he called the fire department and they come put the fire out. But uh, we lived in a neighborhood, it was a nice neighborhood. And we- the only time I was really around Black people was when I went to school. Or my mother and father took me to come by this house. . and where I lived it was, well it was Lexington Avenue in the front of me, um the Stiths uh he was an undertaker. And George Clay and uh- they was lawyers, and I think I don’t know whether some of his children are still lawyers or not. But anyways, it was uh, and school teachers and things like that around. But we-we was in a nice neighborhood and everybody got along nice and everything.

CC: Um, what was your experience living in a white neighborhood but going to an all Black school? You know what were some differences you saw in that?

MG: Well . .I had to go right by the Broadway School to go to school, I never had any problems, um . . with anybody. ‘Cause we played with ‘em when the kids was there, uh in the summertime we all played together and went to each other’s house and everything. I mean even as just kids. That’s the way the parents looked at it we was all children. And going to school they didn’t bother us. Only thing we had to worry about was on Monday morning we had to go early, because they would drive the cows through Wilderness to McGrody goin’ to the stockyard, you had to either go in a store or go somewhere to get out of the way of them cows. That's the only thing, only problem we ever had. And anybody that went to school white or Black was gonna’ catch that. No I-I never did have any problems. Now I’m not saying about other people, Black people in Danville, because I wasn’t in their neighborhood. I don’t know what went on, but where I lived at we didn’t have any problems.

CC: So you said Danville has changed a lot over your lifetime, um what are some reasons that you believe it's changed so much.

MG: Well a lot of reasons, we really don’t have places to go like we used to go. . and uh. . I don’t know it's just- it's just different I guess. Everybody has their ways and things, changing ways and things. I don’t I can’t answer that and be truthful about it because I really uh don’t know.

SS: Ms. Grey are there places that you remember going? Like you said you all don’t have places to go now, so what were some of the places that you would go to?

MG: Well yes, the restaurants up on Second Street there, there was Black restaurants up there, where you could go and- and places you could go and they had this place where you would go dance, things like that. They don’t have things like that anymore. ‘Course I wouldn’t be able to go nowhere anyway ha ha ha . . . but I’m just talking about when I come up.

CC: So when they first started to tear those buildings down, what was-what was that like for you? Having somewhere that you know you spent your time.

MG: Well that was hard. The only thing left on Second Street that was there, is there on the corner of um the Constitution Square, that old house sitting there. That is the only thing that is left that was there, and on both sides, uh, it was Black owned. . and all around that First Street and around was neighborhoods, peoples’ homes and things. All of that’s gone, it’s a lot. . And of course in that area, uh, is where I was just about every day because we had to go, come into town, we had to go in that area. And, just, a lot changed.

CC: Who was, who was specifically affected by these changes?

MG: Well, I don't know. I guess the owners of it, I don't know. A lot of times, all that, must have been all of that was livin’ here. I was living in Lexington at the time, and then I came back to Danville. But, uh, I don't know, they just, I don't know. I can't answer that, I don't want to say something that isn't true.

SS: How long did you live in Lexington?

MG: Umm, about seven or eight years, and then I came back home.

SS: Was it a lot different than Danville?

MG: Oh yes, ha ha ha, a whole lot different.

SS: How was it different?

MG: Well there was more to do, they had parks you could go to, and there was just more to do there than in Danville. ‘Cause at the time you lived in Danville, you didn’t have any parks or anything. The only time you were being in a group with anybody you had to in the school. It was just a lot different.

SS: Did you meet anybody in Lexington that you still talk to when you went back to Danville, or did you like make any relationships with people?

MG: Yes, I mean I was in Lexington and when I lived there I married, I married when I was in Lexington. And then my husband and I separated and I come back home to Danville, because I needed to be back in Danville, but um, yeah, I like, Lexington is fine. But, there other thing is there's nothing like home, I was glad to be home.

CC: Had Urban Renewal efforts already begun when you went to Lexington?

MG: No, no no. Urban Renewal didn't start until I was back here in Danville, that was the first time I had heard anything about Urban Renewal.  And they did, I think they did Third Street, they did Lebanon Pike, and different places I guess, but no. I lived here on Third Street for a long time before Urban Renewal came.

CC: So you said that your house came from Urban Renewal…

MG: The house I live in now, uh huh.

CC: Was that a process of you having to buy back your property or did they just kinda come in and fix things up for you?

MG: No, they, well you didn't have to do it if you didn't want to, but they tored my houses down, my husband and I had two houses. And they rebuilt the house I'm living in now. And, um but, everything looked, you know, we didn't have to pay any money or anything like that. But that's what they did, but some houses, there's two houses...three houses on this street not done, that didn't want to do it and they still standing too.

CC: Did you know anybody, or did you have any friends that also experienced Urban Renewal and weren't able to get their house or their business back?

MG: Do what?

CC: Did you know anybody who also experienced urban renewal but they weren't able to get their houses or their business back?

MG: Oh no, if Urban Renewal tore your house down or took your house they had to replace it. I never heard of anybody who didnt...I don't know but I never heard of it. Way I understood if they took your house, if they tore your house down they had to build you another one and you didn't have to pay for it, but I don't know.

CC: OK, going back to a little bit of your personal life when you got older, went to Lexington, did you start a family? Do you have kids?

MG: Oh yes, I had, I'm the mother of seven children. I um, I have, uh, two daughters that passed. They were, uh, they were married and grown, and they both died of cancer. I have, uh, five children living.

SS: Do any of them live in Danville?

MG: Yes, I have two sons, well three sons who live here in Danville. And I have a son that lives in Columbia, South Carolina, and I have a daughter who lives in Stanford, Kentucky.

SS: What has life been like for your kids?

MG: My kids have had a wonderful life, um, they all, uh, good jobs and things. They've had a wonderful life. I had one son in Vietnam, and, um, I had a son who worked on a railroad. And I have two sons in the service.

SS: Were all of them raised here in Danville?

MG: Yes, uh huh. ‘Cause then I left Lexington with us, five of ‘em. They were small little small children. And then I remarried and had two sons here.

SS: Do you think your kids enjoyed living in Danville or Lexington better?

MG: I imagine Danville because they were not in Lexington long enough to like it. Couldn't go no place around, they was too little to know what it was. As I say, they had a wonderful. And my daughter, she's Norma Jean. She was,um, when they integrated the schools she was all upset because she wanted to graduate from Bate, but  they integrated her senior year and she had to graduate from Danville High. And she didn't like that too much, but otherwise she was fine.

CC: Why didn't she enjoy integrating to Danville?

MG: Danville High? Because Danville High was the all-white school and Bate School was the Black school. And she had been there all the eleven years and her senior year she wanted to be there and graduate from there. That's how a lot of them was. But they integrated and they had to go to Danville High School.

CC: Did she experience any trouble when she was at Danville her senior year?

MG: No, uh uh. They didn't have any trouble, they just wanted to graduate from the school they had been in all their life. No, Uh uh. No, they loved it. You know, after they got there they was alright, they just didn't want to leave the school.

CC: So you said you had two more children with your second husband. What was his experience being in Danville?

MG: Two boys, fine, one of them that lives in Columbia, South Carolina. And he was in the service and after he got out of the service he was an engineer on a railroad. Which he is now. And then the youngest, my youngest, he was in the service, but he never did have to go overseas or nothing. But, um, he just stayed as long as he had to, because he didn't like it. But he works in a factory and he's doing fine.

CC: And your second husband, what did he do for work around Danville at the time?

MG: Well, he worked, he was, um, he was, he had been in the service. And then I married him he was, he worked for Citizens Bank, and he was a teller there, and then he worked at Sears, and he was a salesman at Sears. And then, uh, and then he cleaned office buildings.

CC: Do you believe it was more difficult for him to find work in Danville?

MG: No, he loved it. He did work at the, at one time I think he worked at the [she speaks with Michael Hughes – not Northpoint . . .um, what was that hospital? MH: Darnell.] Darnell Hospital. He worked out there for a long time, and he was cleaning things at night. I forgot about that.

CC: So going back to something that you said earlier. You said you watched a lot of kids from your neighborhood until they graduated from Centre College. What was your experience like with the Centre College community while living in Danville at the time?

MG: Well, um, I've always, um, ...Centre College has always been nice. I used to go to the things that they had over there. And I know they used to have something at the end of school and they all wear these long dresses and march out into the field and things. That was always so pretty. But Centre College has always been real nice. And uh, in fact, I had,uh, two of my grandkids went to Centre College. They didn’t, I don’t think they stayed and graduated. But they did go a couple of years or something like that. And then they went into service. I think they went into the service . . . because they, I know they went to Centre College for a couple of years.

SS: Did they like their time at Centre when they were here?

MG: Yeah, the kids always had things to do over at Centre.

CC: Since you said Centre College has always been a place that you felt comfortable. Um, how did you feel about Centre’s barbershop sit-ins in the ‘70s and them coming into town and demonstrating?

MG: How'd I feel about what?

CC: About the Centre sit in, the Centre College student sit-ins in barbershops in the 1970s.

MG: I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that. I don't know what went on over at Centre or nothing like that. I just, I was, the most of the time that I was there the NAACP would be involved with things over there, and I would go over there. We had things over there, dinners and banquets and all the kind of stuff. But, uh, that’s the only thing that, you know, I know that...really nice people.

CC: So, you said you would go over there with the . . . when the NAACP was over there. Were you involved?

MG: Hmm?

CC: Were you involved in, umm, NAACP conversations? Meeting-ups?

MG: Yeah, yeah. We would go to have meetings over there and we would go to have banquets over there. We would go to the president’s house. We would… They entertained us, yes.

CC: How was that? What was it like being able to talk and meet with the NAACP?

MG: It was good. It was good.

CC: What kind of things did you all talk about around that time?

MG: Well… Anything that would come up. I really couldn’t say what all it was. We had all kind of meetings and we had dances over there. And um, we would, um, have banquets. We’d have a celebrity come in, um, and we’d take them over there, and we had dinner and dances. We did ever-, we did a lot of things over at Centre College. It was nice. Centre College has always been, been nice in the neighborhood.

CC: Who did you work with, um, during that time of, you know, NAACP coming and what did you learn from those moments, those meetings?

MG: What did I learn from them? I learned that if you try and do the right thing, everybody can get along, and… that’s the way it was. And I don’t care who you are or where you come from, as long as you’re doing the right thing and keep the Lord with you, you can do whatever you want to do. I don’t care who you are or where you come from, as long as you carry yourself in a decent way, you’ll make it. You students, you think about that.

WR: Um, what’s something that we should do, um, like an example in order to do the right thing?

MG: Well, it’s just the way you carry yourself. Um, be nice. It ain’t gonna hurt people to be nice. Speak, and say ‘good morning’, ‘good afternoon’, ‘how are you’. Um, and just be nice. That’s what I’m talking about. That goes for everybody. This, this is what I’m talking about. The only way that people can get along is just be nice. You don’t have to have nothing, you don’t have to have a whole lot. It ain’t going to hurt you to smile and say ‘good morning’, ‘good evening’.

CC: Do you think that has changed over time? Um, I know you said when you were younger, you felt like part of the community and everybody got along. Do you think that it’s still that way? That people still say ‘good morning’ and ‘how was your day’ as often as they did then?

MG: Well, I can’t say that because I don’t know. ‘Cause I’m not out enough to know how people are. Um, I just um… I just can’t answer that. ‘Cause I don’t know and I can’t say. It could be better. I’ll put it that way.

CC: So, you went to an all-Black school growing up. You lived in a white neighborhood.

MG: Yeah! Black school but we lived in a white neighborhood.

CC: Yes, ma’am. And, but, you know, you said you’ve gotten along with everybody pretty well. How do you think race has played a part in your life?

MG: Well, when I come up, I can’t say that I lived in a place with racists because I never was around much of- only time really I was around Black people was when I went to school, and my mother and them would go visit somebody. But other than that, we weren’t around nothing but white people. And it was, they was… white people that had money! They treated us, just, we just was like one of them. In the neighborhood. It was the Stiths, the Clays, and Mrs. Cheek was the teacher. And, um, Lanier? They was all people that had money. And we just never was. So, I can’t speak for the other people in Danville because they lived in Black neighborhoods and I don’t know, I can’t say. But I know, we didn’t. We just, we didn’t.

SS: Did you have any friends that lived in the Black neighborhoods and would tell you what it was like, and you thought it was different than where you lived?

MG: Well, it was different, but I can’t say how different because I wasn’t there and living in it and knowing how things really was. So, I mean, I cannot answer something that I don’t know. The only thing that I can say is, um, when I really was around, um, as I got older was I never seen nothing that much going on. I mean, I just can’t answer that. I don’t know.

CC: Do you have any other advice for young people besides be nice and just do the right thing?

MG: Well, always have faith in the Lord. Go to church and treat people like you want to be treated. Have respect for everybody, regardless of who it is.

SS: Have you always went to church, like ever since you grew up?

MG: Yes. And I just can’t hardly make it without going in. I’ll be so glad when we can get back in there. I sung in the choirs, I did it all. I love my church. I joined church in 1938. I have my papers and everything when I got my 50 year pin, and it showed me where, um, the year that I joined church. I was young. I know that the year that I joined church, I never will forget it, we had a Christmas play. And, um, my hair was real long, I had Indian blood in me, and the girl who was walking behind me at the Christmas play, she had this lifted candle and she caught my hair on fire. And, um, so I never will forget that. But, that’s the church. And, um, I’ve been in church all my life.

WR: Have you gone to the same church your whole life?

MG: I’m 93 years old now. And I guess I will, if I can get back in there. When this, um, pandemic leaves, I’ll be back in there. If I live through it, I’ll be there. And I think the Lord will let me do it because He wants me to be back in there. I have faith in Him.

SS: Hey, can I ask, what church do you go to?

MG: I go to First Baptist Church. On the corner of Second and Walnut Street. We’ve had two of your students, um, one who graduated and another one there now, that plays, um, the drums at our church. Real nice, nice people.

CC: Do you know their names?

MG: Hmm?

CC: Do you know their names? The drummers?

MG: I can’t- I can’t think of it. You know, when you get my age, you can’t remember things like that. Names, especially. Sometimes I forget my own grandkids’ names. *laughs* Hmm? Oh, I was in- one of the things I was in was a social club that I was in that I really enjoyed. It’s called the Orchid Girls, and we would have dances and everything. And, um, we’d go on trips. I went to the New York World Fair. Went to the fair when it was down in Tennessee, I believe it was. Um, we’d just do everything

SS: What made you interested in joining that club?

MG: Well, um, when I joined that club I had just, um, separated from my first husband. I’d come down to Danville to live with my- come back home. And, um, they picked the people that they wanted in there. They wouldn’t let anybody in the Orchid Girls, and they asked me to join it and I said yes because I was lonely and everything. And, umm, we wouldn’t have over twelve or thirteen members because we played Whist, back when we had club meetings we played Whist. And we would have three tables and then whoever was hosting it, they had, they’d be fixing the food and stuff for you to eat and things. But, um, and we’d take trips. We been to California. We been to Florida and all down south and things. Every year we’d take some kind of trip somewhere. Um, we had a bus, charter a bus and go, and that was fun.

CC: How long were you in that group?

MG: Um, until it- every-, most of them died out. Um, when they, um, when one of, if any of the members would die, they’d always be dressed in white and have an Orchid on. And anything we did, we wore white with an Orchid. It was really nice. And I think I’m the only living one of them now. I know I am. I’m the only living member of my family. Sisters and brothers and things. But I… I’m happy.

SS: Going back to talking about your church, what has it been like not being able to go this year?

MG: Oh, it’s been- well, I listen to them every Sunday morning on, um, Facebook, and then I have, um, they have Bible studies on Wednesday afternoon at 12. But it’s not like being at church, and being with the church family that you see every Sunday and somebody that you can talk to and things, and listen to them sing. I can’t, I don’t sing anymore. I get too short of breath when I sing but to hear them sing, it’s just something else to be, to go to church is all it is to me. I’ll be glad when we can get back in.

JS: Ms. Grey, we’re at about an hour into the call now. Before I let you go, before we let you go, is there anything that we haven’t covered that you would like to cover about your life to get on the record, to tell us about before we let you go?

MG: No, I don’t think so. *laughs* I think I covered just about everything.

JS: Are there any other questions from the interviewers?

MG: No. Just tell them to keep the faith and be nice. Smile. It’ll get them a long ways.

JS: Alright, well, we want to thank you so much for your time today. You’ve been really generous with your time and your words. So, thank you so much for doing that on behalf of the class.

MG: Well, I hope that they got something from it. *laughs* Thank you.

JS: We certainly have. Thank you so much for your time.

MG: Alright, thank you.

JS: Bye-bye.